Identifying Pamor for a First Keris

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 09:59 PM

I read that warangan for staining is made from 'raw orange arsenic' and 'realgar'. I imagine what nature provides in Indonesia is similar to the Philippines.

If I stain, I don't want a heavy stain. Maybe ripened calamansi will work?

I have been into the stone hobby for a while. I will find out what this 'realgar' is and if I can find it in the Philippines. I have never heard of this stone, before.

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2019, 12:16 AM

Yeah, you're right David, Alan was asleep and right now he's drinking coffee to help him wake up.

There are a lot of questions that seem to have been generated overnight, but there is really only one thing that needs to be attended to first, before the work on this keris can proceed.

I am going to assume that Quis wants the very best job that can be done on this wrongko , so I'm not going to advise any short-cuts, I'm going to try to provide advice that if done carefully will restore this wrongko to a better state than it was in before the damage occurred. This will take time and care.

The first thing to do is to remove the small pieces of wood that have broken away from the atasan or gambar of the wrongko. (top part of scabbard = atasan, gambar)

We do this by taking a couple of small pieces of cloth --- old handkerchiefs are good --- tearing the cloth into narrow strips, wetting those strips, squeezing excess water from them, and pushing them into the mouth of the gandar ("stem" of scabbard = gandar). We then take another couple of strips of cloth, wet them, squeeze out the excess water and wrap around the top of the gandar, over the broken pieces of wood adhering to it.

It might take anywhere between overnight and a few days for the adhesive that is holding the broken wood in place to soften sufficiently to permit it to let go of the broken wood. Check the wood every 12 hours or so, ensure that the cloth is kept damp.

When the adhesive bond softens sufficiently to release the wood, very gently free the broken pieces from the top of the gandar. At the same time carefully and gently use a small, sharp tool to remove the old adhesive, this old adhesive should be soft, so it should not be difficult to remove. You need to remove all of the old adhesive.

When the broken wood is free of the gandar and clean, and the inside mating surfaces of the atasan are clean, set everything aside for a few days and allow it to dry thoroughly.

When the pieces are dry let us have a look at the work you have done and we can move to the next step. The aim is to repair the atasan before we begin the job of re-aligning the blade and putting everything back together again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A couple of other things we can consider now.

Rick is correct, woollen yarn is the best material to use for a hilt pressure fit. We use wool because it compresses as we fit the hilt, if the yarn that we use is too hard, for instance, if it were to be cotton, we run the risk of cracking the hilt.

To return to the place of origin of this keris blade (wilahan). Lombok has a very mixed population, it was settled relatively late, the Sasaks are regarded as the original inhabitants of Lombok, the island was under the control of Majapahit, Makasar controlled it for a while, then Bali, then the Dutch, settlers from Jawa, Sumbawa, Sulawesi, Bali came into the island, and the people living there now still identify with their ethnic roots. All of this mixing of cultures is reflected in keris styles, and often in later the keris the styles become mixed. We see some pretty strange keris that have come out of Lombok.

The gandhik of this keris is a form that in Solo is regarded as being associated with the Eastern Islands of the Archipelago. The heavy topographic sculpting of the blade body that results in deep kruwingan and distinct ada-ada is something that we can find in isolated examples from several places, but in Lombok extreme expression of blade topography is relatively common.

I am inclined to accept this keris as probably being of Lombok origin because I cannot identify any alternative origin that I could rationally defend.

David's advice to leave this keris where it is now is very wise.

For many years I have sent keris to countries throughout the world, I have personally carried keris from one country to another. In recent years it has become absolutely essential to have a thorough understanding of the laws of the country that one wishes to send a keris to, or carry one to. They are universally regarded as daggers or short swords and many countries have laws that will cause a keris to be seized at its borders.

Quis, if you are determined to take this keris to the Philippines I suggest that you seek advice from the Philippine embassy in your country of residence before so doing. Then seek advice from the Customs and police in the state or province in which you live as to the legality of bringing that keris home again.

A few days ago I returned to Australia from Indonesia. Over the years I have done this journey well over 100 times. I've been travelling to and from Indonesia since 1966. I re-entered Australia through the port of Sydney, before I went to Indonesia I obtained the appropriate police documentation (form B709B) that permitted me to bring daggers into Australia. Although daggers require no licence or permit to possess in my state of residence (NSW), they are prohibited imports under federal law, the Customs officials are Australian Govt. employees and they administer federal law, so even though it is perfectly legal for me to own a dagger (or daggers) in NSW, those federal employees need a statement from the NSW police that formally states this.

Before you take your keris out of your country of residence you must have a very clear, documented understanding of the applicable laws in the country where you live and the country you wish to take it to.

In respect of realgar and arsenic and blade staining.
All realgar is not equal.
All arsenic is not equal.
It is presently very difficult to obtain good quality warangan (realgar) in Indonesia. Last week I was having a conversation with a gentleman from Madura who takes blades from Bali & Jawa to Madura for staining, and I was telling him about the benefits of using laboratory quality arsenic for staining. He immediately began to pressure me to get some for him, but this is something I am totally unable to do.

Then there is the actual staining. It took me about ten years to learn how to do a passable stain job --- yeah, OK, I'm a slow learner. However, I did not learn how to do a good stain job until after I had been taught by two master m'ranggis in Central Jawa. It is not just a matter of getting hold of some warangan, either arsenic or realgar. It takes time to learn.

To properly clean a blade we often need to combine mechanical procedure with chemical procedure. This means that we use small sharp tools such as heavy needles or miniature scrapers to mechanically remove the deep rust that the acids will not remove.

Yes, "bambu" is bamboo.
Araldite is a two part epoxy resin, I do not know the name of equivalent adhesives in other countries, but I believe a few Google searches should help identify whatever is available wherever you are.

Kretek cigarettes are even more carcinogenic than tobacco.
Visit somebody in hospital who has lost his lower jaw and a part of his throat to cancer, and has that part of himself covered by a mask in order not to horrify his visitors and you will probably never touch another cigarette, let alone a kretek, for the rest of your life. Emphysema is not much fun either, and kreteks accelerate the process.

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2019, 12:33 AM

Well Quis, it seems that you are determined to get your keris restored in the Philippines, so I wish you the very best of luck.

As to luk count, yes, this is associated with belief systems, but those belief systems are Jawa-Hindu, Bali, and Islamic Javanese.

This link will take you to a page of a paper that I published a few years ago that puts forward some ideas on how luk were originally counted and how and why they are counted differently now.

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE5.html

Incidentally, coconut oil is a very poor base for fragrant keris oil, singer sewing machine oil or medicinal paraffin is far superior. Over time coconut oil will go rancid and generate a very unpleasant odour, if left on a blade for too long it will require serious solvents to remove it, and years to get rid of the stink.

QuisUtDeus · 14th May 2019, 01:52 AM

Please, and more please, allow me to digest your knowledges. I'm sure my English sounds funny, but I'm an English major who is half un-English.

I'm a mid-Western, well-spoken American. No matter where I go in the English-speaking world, I can be understood. English speaking is based on specificity. The consonants are important. We can understand each other based on consonants.

In S.E.Asia, though, it is the vowels that matter. This is what I see that foreign people don't understand. They don't understand the music. I, myself, am foreign. The difference is I can speak musically.

AEIOU

Sing what you mean!

I've read about Indonesians being indirect and disliking directness. It's exactly the same in Philippines. Sing what you want to sing! Feel the vowels. They will know what you want and how you feel. The English won't matter. The sounds you make will.

QuisUtDeus · 14th May 2019, 02:24 AM

I do want to post about smoking.

Kreteks are nothing next to McDonald's. I can run a mile as a kretek smoker. I could not as a fast-food eater when I was 20 years old.

I'm pushing 40 years old, now, and can. Food kills you.

After two long fasts, both without food, I can tell you smoke is nothing. It is less consumptive than food.

Everyone is probably confused by my writing style. None of you are wrong. I am a 38 year-old, unbabied, unmarried, handsome man. I have your logic but do not have your wear.

My karma is different than anyone else's I've met. I am as old as you all in logic but I dream like a boy.

Thank you, All!
Tim

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2019, 04:31 AM

Well Tim, I'm pleased that I can now address you as Tim rather than to continually look for you.

Your English does not read in a peculiar fashion at all, it is well constructed and clear. You definitely do not qualify for remedial classes.

As for tobacco, kreteks and food, as with all things, we tend to believe that which we wish to believe. I personally believe the current scientific evidence in respect of both food and tobacco, and of course, kreteks --- and I have very close and personal experience of a man who lost all of his face below the nose and then all of the front of his throat. This cancer was caused by smoking.

Tim, I doubt that we can generalise across all of S.E. Asia upon the importance or otherwise of vowels, consonants and other parts of speech. I am not able to comment upon languages other than Indonesian, Javanese, and to a limited extent, Balinese, but in respect of Javanese, the tendency exists for speakers to alter words in accordance with their own wishes.

Linguists regard Javanese as a non-standard language, and vowels as well as consonants can change between both areas of usage and between individuals in those areas. Much of Javanese communication is based in body language, and that which is left unsaid.

Bahasa Indonesia is a constantly developing language, and the latest development seems to be for educated --- and some not so well educated --- speakers to haphazardly mix English into the base of Bahasa Indonesia. This can make the language unintelligible to people who are not well educated, and utterly ridiculous to many people who are.

Last week I was watching a cooking show on Indonesian TV, I forget what they were cooking, but it was some sort of simple local recipe, like nasi goreng or mie goreng or similar, and the cook kept on breaking into English in his commentary. It sounded absolutely stupid. Like, there are not sufficiently adequate words in Indonesian to tell somebody how to cook fried rice? Yeah --- right!

Tim, I really do envy the fact that no matter where in the world that you go in the English speaking world, you can be understood. I'm a third generation Australian from British ancestors, and I have difficulty in being understood by some other native born Australians. Little 18 year old super market checkout girls who have never been out of inner city suburbs seem to be the ones who mostly think I'm speaking a foreign language. A broad scattering of under 25 year olds, mostly the very elegant ones, both male and female have problems with my accent. Several of my American friends have more than the average difficulty with the way I "murder their language". But if I move 100 or so miles away from the city centre I am universally understood, and I did teach English to new immigrants to Australia for a number of years. Still, to be universally understood by all speakers of the English language is something to be proud of.

David · 14th May 2019, 04:47 PM

Well gentlemen, while i do appreciate that keris cannot be discussed in a vacuum, i am afraid i have reached that point where i am going to respectfully request that we try to focus our attention away from cigarettes, fast food and personal karma and instead stick to the discussion of keris. Thank you all for your cooperation in this matter.

13th May 2019, 09:59 PM	#1
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	I read that warangan for staining is made from 'raw orange arsenic' and 'realgar'. I imagine what nature provides in Indonesia is similar to the Philippines. If I stain, I don't want a heavy stain. Maybe ripened calamansi will work? I have been into the stone hobby for a while. I will find out what this 'realgar' is and if I can find it in the Philippines. I have never heard of this stone, before.

14th May 2019, 12:16 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yeah, you're right David, Alan was asleep and right now he's drinking coffee to help him wake up. There are a lot of questions that seem to have been generated overnight, but there is really only one thing that needs to be attended to first, before the work on this keris can proceed. I am going to assume that Quis wants the very best job that can be done on this wrongko , so I'm not going to advise any short-cuts, I'm going to try to provide advice that if done carefully will restore this wrongko to a better state than it was in before the damage occurred. This will take time and care. The first thing to do is to remove the small pieces of wood that have broken away from the atasan or gambar of the wrongko. (top part of scabbard = atasan, gambar) We do this by taking a couple of small pieces of cloth --- old handkerchiefs are good --- tearing the cloth into narrow strips, wetting those strips, squeezing excess water from them, and pushing them into the mouth of the gandar ("stem" of scabbard = gandar). We then take another couple of strips of cloth, wet them, squeeze out the excess water and wrap around the top of the gandar, over the broken pieces of wood adhering to it. It might take anywhere between overnight and a few days for the adhesive that is holding the broken wood in place to soften sufficiently to permit it to let go of the broken wood. Check the wood every 12 hours or so, ensure that the cloth is kept damp. When the adhesive bond softens sufficiently to release the wood, very gently free the broken pieces from the top of the gandar. At the same time carefully and gently use a small, sharp tool to remove the old adhesive, this old adhesive should be soft, so it should not be difficult to remove. You need to remove all of the old adhesive. When the broken wood is free of the gandar and clean, and the inside mating surfaces of the atasan are clean, set everything aside for a few days and allow it to dry thoroughly. When the pieces are dry let us have a look at the work you have done and we can move to the next step. The aim is to repair the atasan before we begin the job of re-aligning the blade and putting everything back together again. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A couple of other things we can consider now. Rick is correct, woollen yarn is the best material to use for a hilt pressure fit. We use wool because it compresses as we fit the hilt, if the yarn that we use is too hard, for instance, if it were to be cotton, we run the risk of cracking the hilt. To return to the place of origin of this keris blade (wilahan). Lombok has a very mixed population, it was settled relatively late, the Sasaks are regarded as the original inhabitants of Lombok, the island was under the control of Majapahit, Makasar controlled it for a while, then Bali, then the Dutch, settlers from Jawa, Sumbawa, Sulawesi, Bali came into the island, and the people living there now still identify with their ethnic roots. All of this mixing of cultures is reflected in keris styles, and often in later the keris the styles become mixed. We see some pretty strange keris that have come out of Lombok. The gandhik of this keris is a form that in Solo is regarded as being associated with the Eastern Islands of the Archipelago. The heavy topographic sculpting of the blade body that results in deep kruwingan and distinct ada-ada is something that we can find in isolated examples from several places, but in Lombok extreme expression of blade topography is relatively common. I am inclined to accept this keris as probably being of Lombok origin because I cannot identify any alternative origin that I could rationally defend. David's advice to leave this keris where it is now is very wise. For many years I have sent keris to countries throughout the world, I have personally carried keris from one country to another. In recent years it has become absolutely essential to have a thorough understanding of the laws of the country that one wishes to send a keris to, or carry one to. They are universally regarded as daggers or short swords and many countries have laws that will cause a keris to be seized at its borders. Quis, if you are determined to take this keris to the Philippines I suggest that you seek advice from the Philippine embassy in your country of residence before so doing. Then seek advice from the Customs and police in the state or province in which you live as to the legality of bringing that keris home again. A few days ago I returned to Australia from Indonesia. Over the years I have done this journey well over 100 times. I've been travelling to and from Indonesia since 1966. I re-entered Australia through the port of Sydney, before I went to Indonesia I obtained the appropriate police documentation (form B709B) that permitted me to bring daggers into Australia. Although daggers require no licence or permit to possess in my state of residence (NSW), they are prohibited imports under federal law, the Customs officials are Australian Govt. employees and they administer federal law, so even though it is perfectly legal for me to own a dagger (or daggers) in NSW, those federal employees need a statement from the NSW police that formally states this. Before you take your keris out of your country of residence you must have a very clear, documented understanding of the applicable laws in the country where you live and the country you wish to take it to. In respect of realgar and arsenic and blade staining. All realgar is not equal. All arsenic is not equal. It is presently very difficult to obtain good quality warangan (realgar) in Indonesia. Last week I was having a conversation with a gentleman from Madura who takes blades from Bali & Jawa to Madura for staining, and I was telling him about the benefits of using laboratory quality arsenic for staining. He immediately began to pressure me to get some for him, but this is something I am totally unable to do. Then there is the actual staining. It took me about ten years to learn how to do a passable stain job --- yeah, OK, I'm a slow learner. However, I did not learn how to do a good stain job until after I had been taught by two master m'ranggis in Central Jawa. It is not just a matter of getting hold of some warangan, either arsenic or realgar. It takes time to learn. To properly clean a blade we often need to combine mechanical procedure with chemical procedure. This means that we use small sharp tools such as heavy needles or miniature scrapers to mechanically remove the deep rust that the acids will not remove. Yes, "bambu" is bamboo. Araldite is a two part epoxy resin, I do not know the name of equivalent adhesives in other countries, but I believe a few Google searches should help identify whatever is available wherever you are. Kretek cigarettes are even more carcinogenic than tobacco. Visit somebody in hospital who has lost his lower jaw and a part of his throat to cancer, and has that part of himself covered by a mask in order not to horrify his visitors and you will probably never touch another cigarette, let alone a kretek, for the rest of your life. Emphysema is not much fun either, and kreteks accelerate the process.

14th May 2019, 12:33 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Well Quis, it seems that you are determined to get your keris restored in the Philippines, so I wish you the very best of luck. As to luk count, yes, this is associated with belief systems, but those belief systems are Jawa-Hindu, Bali, and Islamic Javanese. This link will take you to a page of a paper that I published a few years ago that puts forward some ideas on how luk were originally counted and how and why they are counted differently now. http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE5.html Incidentally, coconut oil is a very poor base for fragrant keris oil, singer sewing machine oil or medicinal paraffin is far superior. Over time coconut oil will go rancid and generate a very unpleasant odour, if left on a blade for too long it will require serious solvents to remove it, and years to get rid of the stink.

14th May 2019, 01:52 AM	#4
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Please, and more please, allow me to digest your knowledges. I'm sure my English sounds funny, but I'm an English major who is half un-English. I'm a mid-Western, well-spoken American. No matter where I go in the English-speaking world, I can be understood. English speaking is based on specificity. The consonants are important. We can understand each other based on consonants. In S.E.Asia, though, it is the vowels that matter. This is what I see that foreign people don't understand. They don't understand the music. I, myself, am foreign. The difference is I can speak musically. AEIOU Sing what you mean! I've read about Indonesians being indirect and disliking directness. It's exactly the same in Philippines. Sing what you want to sing! Feel the vowels. They will know what you want and how you feel. The English won't matter. The sounds you make will.

14th May 2019, 02:24 AM	#5
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	I do want to post about smoking. Kreteks are nothing next to McDonald's. I can run a mile as a kretek smoker. I could not as a fast-food eater when I was 20 years old. I'm pushing 40 years old, now, and can. Food kills you. After two long fasts, both without food, I can tell you smoke is nothing. It is less consumptive than food. Everyone is probably confused by my writing style. None of you are wrong. I am a 38 year-old, unbabied, unmarried, handsome man. I have your logic but do not have your wear. My karma is different than anyone else's I've met. I am as old as you all in logic but I dream like a boy. Thank you, All! Tim

14th May 2019, 04:31 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Well Tim, I'm pleased that I can now address you as Tim rather than to continually look for you. Your English does not read in a peculiar fashion at all, it is well constructed and clear. You definitely do not qualify for remedial classes. As for tobacco, kreteks and food, as with all things, we tend to believe that which we wish to believe. I personally believe the current scientific evidence in respect of both food and tobacco, and of course, kreteks --- and I have very close and personal experience of a man who lost all of his face below the nose and then all of the front of his throat. This cancer was caused by smoking. Tim, I doubt that we can generalise across all of S.E. Asia upon the importance or otherwise of vowels, consonants and other parts of speech. I am not able to comment upon languages other than Indonesian, Javanese, and to a limited extent, Balinese, but in respect of Javanese, the tendency exists for speakers to alter words in accordance with their own wishes. Linguists regard Javanese as a non-standard language, and vowels as well as consonants can change between both areas of usage and between individuals in those areas. Much of Javanese communication is based in body language, and that which is left unsaid. Bahasa Indonesia is a constantly developing language, and the latest development seems to be for educated --- and some not so well educated --- speakers to haphazardly mix English into the base of Bahasa Indonesia. This can make the language unintelligible to people who are not well educated, and utterly ridiculous to many people who are. Last week I was watching a cooking show on Indonesian TV, I forget what they were cooking, but it was some sort of simple local recipe, like nasi goreng or mie goreng or similar, and the cook kept on breaking into English in his commentary. It sounded absolutely stupid. Like, there are not sufficiently adequate words in Indonesian to tell somebody how to cook fried rice? Yeah --- right! Tim, I really do envy the fact that no matter where in the world that you go in the English speaking world, you can be understood. I'm a third generation Australian from British ancestors, and I have difficulty in being understood by some other native born Australians. Little 18 year old super market checkout girls who have never been out of inner city suburbs seem to be the ones who mostly think I'm speaking a foreign language. A broad scattering of under 25 year olds, mostly the very elegant ones, both male and female have problems with my accent. Several of my American friends have more than the average difficulty with the way I "murder their language". But if I move 100 or so miles away from the city centre I am universally understood, and I did teach English to new immigrants to Australia for a number of years. Still, to be universally understood by all speakers of the English language is something to be proud of.

14th May 2019, 04:47 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Well gentlemen, while i do appreciate that keris cannot be discussed in a vacuum, i am afraid i have reached that point where i am going to respectfully request that we try to focus our attention away from cigarettes, fast food and personal karma and instead stick to the discussion of keris. Thank you all for your cooperation in this matter.