Chivalry

Andrew · 22nd April 2006, 04:08 AM

Let's try and keep this discussion in the abstract, to avoid war here.

Propaganda and War always have and always will go hand-in-hand, and Heroes make good television. However, every conflict has its Heroes. Most are never canonized by the media or history, but their heroism is not diminished by the lack of notoriety.

VANDOO · 22nd April 2006, 03:49 PM

PROPAGANDA IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF WINNING A WAR IT CAN MAKE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WINNING OR BEING DEFEATED. THERE ARE MANY HEROIC DEEDS DONE AND NEVER NOTICED AND MANY DASTERDLY THINGS DONE IN WAR BY THE WINNERS AND THE LOSERS. GOOD PROPAGANDA INSPIRES YOUR TROOPS TO DO THEIR BEST AND CAN DISCOURAGE THE ENEMY. BAD PROPAGANDA DISCOURAGES YOUR TROOPS AND COUNTRY AND MAKES THE ENEMY MORE BOLD AND DETERMINED AS THEY WAIT FOR YOUR COUNTRYS RESOLVE TO FAIL AND FOR YOU TO TURN TAIL AND RUN.

MANY STORIES OF HEROIC FIGHTING ARE TRUE AND SOME MAY BE EMBELISHED BY THE ONES WHO SAW THE ACTION, BUT I DON'T THINK MANY ARE JUST MADE UP. THERE ARE MANY HEROS IN WAR MOST OF WHICH DIE FOR THEIR COUNTRYS TRYING TO PROTECT THEIR FELLOWS AND WIN FOR THEIR COUNTRY. THERE ARE USUALLY MORE HEROS WHO ARE KILLED THAN THOSE WHO LIVE THRU SUCH A SITUATION, OFTEN THEY BECOME A FOCUS FOR A TRADITION TO INSPIRE FUTURE TROOPS. THE FORIGN LEGION HAS SEVERAL GREAT HEROS THAT ARE PART OF THEIR TRADITION AND MOST MILITARY UNITS THE WORLD OVER HAVE THEIR HEROS AND TRADITIONS AS WELL. IT IS OFTEN SUPRIZING WHAT A DIFFERENCE ONE MAN OR A SMALL GROUP CAN MAKE IN A BATTLE IF THEY DO THEIR BEST. IF THE ENEMY THOUGHT THEY WERE FIGHTING ONE TANK AND NOT A ENTIRE UNIT THE OUTCOME WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DIFFERENT SO THE QUICK THINKING OF THE TANK COMANDER TO MISLEAD THEM STOPPED THE ADVANCE AND SAVED HIM AND ALLOWED HIM TO FIGHT ON.

WAR IS SOMETHING THAT ALL COUNTRYS SHOULD AVOID IF POSSIBLE BUT ONCE YOU ARE COMITTED EVERYONE MUST SUPPORT THE EFFORT IN ALL WAYS OR YOU WILL SURELY LOSE AND WORSE ALYWAYS FOLLOWS FOR THE LOSER.

Rivkin · 22nd April 2006, 06:21 PM

To be completely honest, I don't know how to reply to this thread, without inflaming passions. I am not trying to say that there is no such things as heroism; what I am trying to say is that we learn about great heroes from newspapers and military reports. Both sources have other than truth objectives - providing subscribers with something interesting to read for the former, and motivation of masses for the latter.

Obviously, a lot of actions are described accurately. On the other hand, why Patton is a genius commander, while everytime Hitler's military record is described, it is all about his mistakes in 1943-45? Why Einstein and Hawking are super-celebrities in the world of science, while Heisenberg, Walter Kohn or Lorentz are barely known to the mass public ? What is so great about artists like Ansel Adams or Pollack ? The answer, in my opinion, is simple - some heroes are better suited for mass consumption. To some extent they got lucky, they just happened to be what masses needed - does not mean that they were not outstanding or even ingineous. But there are dozens of others who are quite capable of holding their own place in history, who are unknown.

Obviously there are many cases, when individuals or governments exploit this property of our society in order to advance their own agenda. Ariel, how about the famous recipient of Congressional Gold Medal, who held "multiple advanced degrees from Sorbonne and Humboldt" - I heard they still can't find a single one of them

.

Andrew · 22nd April 2006, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

To be completely honest, I don't know how to reply to this thread, without inflaming passions.

Staying away from specific examples will help.

Quote:

I am not trying to say that there is no such things as heroism; what I am trying to say is that we learn about great heroes from newspapers and military reports. Both sources have other than truth objectives - providing subscribers with something interesting to read for the former, and motivation of masses for the latter.

Obviously, a lot of actions are described accurately. On the other hand, why Patton is a genius commander, while everytime Hitler's military record is described, it is all about his mistakes in 1943-45? Why Einstein and Hawking are super-celebrities in the world of science, while Heisenberg, Walter Kohn or Lorentz are barely known to the mass public ? What is so great about artists like Ansel Adams or Pollack ? The answer, in my opinion, is simple - some heroes are better suited for mass consumption. To some extent they got lucky, they just happened to be what masses needed - does not mean that they were not outstanding or even ingineous. But there are dozens of others who are quite capable of holding their own place in history, who are unknown.

Obviously there are many cases, when individuals or governments exploit this property of our society in order to advance their own agenda. Ariel, how about the famous recipient of Congressional Gold Medal, who held "multiple advanced degrees from Sorbonne and Humboldt" - I heard they still can't find a single one of them

.

To a certain extent, you're mixing apples and oranges, Kiril. Military commanders are subject to the axiom "To the victor goes the spoils". Including how history remembers them. This is particularly true when the loser is guilty (or accused) of atrocities. It is a rare and exceptional military "loser" whose efforts are praised by the victor.

Pop culture icons (and I include artists, athletes, gladiators, actors, musicians and certain scientists) have and will always be created by the media. Some deserve it, some don't.

ariel · 22nd April 2006, 07:26 PM

No doubt, some "heroic deeds" were invented.
The classic one, I think, is a story of Aryobarzan.
About 150 years after the Battle of Thermopilae (the 300 Spartans story), Alexander the Great invaded Persia. With a comparatively small force, he annihilated Persian forces time and time again.
The humiliated Persians counteracted with the story of a heroic Persian commander Aryobarzan who, with a small force, held the gigantic Greek army at bay in a mountain pass. A local shepherd betrayed him by showing the Greeks a secret pass around.
Well, this is the exact repetition of the Leonidas' story, only the sides were reversed!
I spoke with a former Professor of History in Teheran University and she just chuckled: according to her, this story was a well-known hoax invented by the humiliated Persians and passed from generation to generation. Kind of psychological compensation..... But just Google this name: hundreds of hits in Iran, from hotels to tours! Heroism, especially invented, can be commercially profitable

.

M.carter · 22nd April 2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

No doubt, some "heroic deeds" were invented.
The classic one, I think, is a story of Aryobarzan.
About 150 years after the Battle of Thermopilae (the 300 Spartans story), Alexander the Great invaded Persia. With a comparatively small force, he annihilated Persian forces time and time again.
The humiliated Persians counteracted with the story of a heroic Persian commander Aryobarzan who, with a small force, held the gigantic Greek army at bay in a mountain pass. A local shepherd betrayed him by showing the Greeks a secret pass around.
Well, this is the exact repetition of the Leonidas' story, only the sides were reversed!
I spoke with a former Professor of History in Teheran University and she just chuckled: according to her, this story was a well-known hoax invented by the humiliated Persians and passed from generation to generation. Kind of psychological compensation..... But just Google this name: hundreds of hits in Iran, from hotels to tours! Heroism, especially invented, can be commercially profitable

.

Absolutely, just like nessie!

M.carter · 22nd April 2006, 09:09 PM

One thing Ariel, Lt.Zvika was also recognised by the Syrians, and that he acted alone all during that battle, ive read that in many reports of Syrian military commanders of that time. He's surely a hero.

I also recount the story of Abdulrahman, the young ummayad prince who refounded his dynasty in Iberia, after his clan was massacred by the Abbasids after the battle of the Zab. After countless personal and military feats, he was recognised by his arch-enemy, the Abbasid Caliph in the east, in his court, and in front of all his advisors and viziers, as the "hawk of quraish".

When one is recognised by his enemy as a hero, like Lieutenant Zvi, and Abdulrahman, then he is doubtlessly a hero.

22nd April 2006, 04:08 AM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Let's try and keep this discussion in the abstract, to avoid war here. Propaganda and War always have and always will go hand-in-hand, and Heroes make good television. However, every conflict has its Heroes. Most are never canonized by the media or history, but their heroism is not diminished by the lack of notoriety.

22nd April 2006, 03:49 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	PROPAGANDA IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF WINNING A WAR IT CAN MAKE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WINNING OR BEING DEFEATED. THERE ARE MANY HEROIC DEEDS DONE AND NEVER NOTICED AND MANY DASTERDLY THINGS DONE IN WAR BY THE WINNERS AND THE LOSERS. GOOD PROPAGANDA INSPIRES YOUR TROOPS TO DO THEIR BEST AND CAN DISCOURAGE THE ENEMY. BAD PROPAGANDA DISCOURAGES YOUR TROOPS AND COUNTRY AND MAKES THE ENEMY MORE BOLD AND DETERMINED AS THEY WAIT FOR YOUR COUNTRYS RESOLVE TO FAIL AND FOR YOU TO TURN TAIL AND RUN. MANY STORIES OF HEROIC FIGHTING ARE TRUE AND SOME MAY BE EMBELISHED BY THE ONES WHO SAW THE ACTION, BUT I DON'T THINK MANY ARE JUST MADE UP. THERE ARE MANY HEROS IN WAR MOST OF WHICH DIE FOR THEIR COUNTRYS TRYING TO PROTECT THEIR FELLOWS AND WIN FOR THEIR COUNTRY. THERE ARE USUALLY MORE HEROS WHO ARE KILLED THAN THOSE WHO LIVE THRU SUCH A SITUATION, OFTEN THEY BECOME A FOCUS FOR A TRADITION TO INSPIRE FUTURE TROOPS. THE FORIGN LEGION HAS SEVERAL GREAT HEROS THAT ARE PART OF THEIR TRADITION AND MOST MILITARY UNITS THE WORLD OVER HAVE THEIR HEROS AND TRADITIONS AS WELL. IT IS OFTEN SUPRIZING WHAT A DIFFERENCE ONE MAN OR A SMALL GROUP CAN MAKE IN A BATTLE IF THEY DO THEIR BEST. IF THE ENEMY THOUGHT THEY WERE FIGHTING ONE TANK AND NOT A ENTIRE UNIT THE OUTCOME WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DIFFERENT SO THE QUICK THINKING OF THE TANK COMANDER TO MISLEAD THEM STOPPED THE ADVANCE AND SAVED HIM AND ALLOWED HIM TO FIGHT ON. WAR IS SOMETHING THAT ALL COUNTRYS SHOULD AVOID IF POSSIBLE BUT ONCE YOU ARE COMITTED EVERYONE MUST SUPPORT THE EFFORT IN ALL WAYS OR YOU WILL SURELY LOSE AND WORSE ALYWAYS FOLLOWS FOR THE LOSER.

22nd April 2006, 06:21 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	To be completely honest, I don't know how to reply to this thread, without inflaming passions. I am not trying to say that there is no such things as heroism; what I am trying to say is that we learn about great heroes from newspapers and military reports. Both sources have other than truth objectives - providing subscribers with something interesting to read for the former, and motivation of masses for the latter. Obviously, a lot of actions are described accurately. On the other hand, why Patton is a genius commander, while everytime Hitler's military record is described, it is all about his mistakes in 1943-45? Why Einstein and Hawking are super-celebrities in the world of science, while Heisenberg, Walter Kohn or Lorentz are barely known to the mass public ? What is so great about artists like Ansel Adams or Pollack ? The answer, in my opinion, is simple - some heroes are better suited for mass consumption. To some extent they got lucky, they just happened to be what masses needed - does not mean that they were not outstanding or even ingineous. But there are dozens of others who are quite capable of holding their own place in history, who are unknown. Obviously there are many cases, when individuals or governments exploit this property of our society in order to advance their own agenda. Ariel, how about the famous recipient of Congressional Gold Medal, who held "multiple advanced degrees from Sorbonne and Humboldt" - I heard they still can't find a single one of them .

22nd April 2006, 07:26 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No doubt, some "heroic deeds" were invented. The classic one, I think, is a story of Aryobarzan. About 150 years after the Battle of Thermopilae (the 300 Spartans story), Alexander the Great invaded Persia. With a comparatively small force, he annihilated Persian forces time and time again. The humiliated Persians counteracted with the story of a heroic Persian commander Aryobarzan who, with a small force, held the gigantic Greek army at bay in a mountain pass. A local shepherd betrayed him by showing the Greeks a secret pass around. Well, this is the exact repetition of the Leonidas' story, only the sides were reversed! I spoke with a former Professor of History in Teheran University and she just chuckled: according to her, this story was a well-known hoax invented by the humiliated Persians and passed from generation to generation. Kind of psychological compensation..... But just Google this name: hundreds of hits in Iran, from hotels to tours! Heroism, especially invented, can be commercially profitable .

22nd April 2006, 09:09 PM	#7
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	One thing Ariel, Lt.Zvika was also recognised by the Syrians, and that he acted alone all during that battle, ive read that in many reports of Syrian military commanders of that time. He's surely a hero. I also recount the story of Abdulrahman, the young ummayad prince who refounded his dynasty in Iberia, after his clan was massacred by the Abbasids after the battle of the Zab. After countless personal and military feats, he was recognised by his arch-enemy, the Abbasid Caliph in the east, in his court, and in front of all his advisors and viziers, as the "hawk of quraish". When one is recognised by his enemy as a hero, like Lieutenant Zvi, and Abdulrahman, then he is doubtlessly a hero.