Identifying Pamor for a First Keris

David · 10th May 2019, 05:17 PM

I will try to answer some of your questions.
Firstly, this keris is presented in Balinese dress, but i am having trouble seeing it as a true Balinese blade. The greneng on the gonjo is cut rather poorly for a Bali keris and the gonjo itself does not look right and the sogokan do not seem to be nearly cut deep enough for Balinese standards. I believe the pamor is the standard Beras Wutah - scattered rice grain, but the blade certainly hasn't been treated in the typical Balinese manner of keeping the surface polished smooth. It is also a bit shorter than most Balinese keris of this era. I suppose that a Lombok origin is possible and i have seen Lombok keris in this particular sheath kekandikan style before, but i really can't be sure. I am inclined to think the blade may have a Maduran origin. Despite the obvious wear on this blade it appears more contemporary to my eye than older.
If you are concerned about "over dressing" this blade i personally would not seek any new components for this ensemble. The pelet timoho wood that is used is considered quite desirable and frankly this keris blade is fairly mediocre as Bali style blades go and does not require fancier dress. As for the handle, it isn't really mediocre per se, it is a very common Balinese bondalan form and i see no reason to change it. That it does not fit well in your hand should not make it unsuitable.
If this were mine i would cleanly repair the now broken sheath, clean up the uwer (mendak is a Javanese term) and re-stain if possible after fully cleaning the blade. A re-stain with warangan will do wonders for making theirs blade more attractive IMHO.
All that said, i would not consider this a "bad" first keris. I think most of us probably faired far worse on our first outing. What is always most important about any keris is that you like it. And just a warning...they are addictive! LOL!

Jean · 10th May 2019, 08:52 PM

This is a quite decent kris IMO and it looks to have some age, including the blade (see the rust between the gonjo and the base of the blade). The Lombok origin seems a fair assumption, the blade has 15 luks indeed and the pamor pattern is a standard one, may be identified as Beras Wutah/ Ilining Warih according to the Neka book. Is the blade fitting neatly into the scabbard? Like David I would change nothing to it except cleaning the blade and uwer, and repairing the scabbard if needed. What is the blade length?
Regards

QuisUtDeus · 10th May 2019, 08:54 PM

Thank you! My name's not Michael, but St. Michael is one reason I've entered the keris community. A few effigies of him wield a keris. I've actually found a reason for this but it might be too far afield to post in the forum. I do think many of you would find it interesting, though. The reason begins with the keris, then delves into architecture, ethnography, astronomy, and ultimately eschatology. It gets pretty far out.

I'll get back to the subject.

I'm already picking up new parts. I'll save them for a nicer blade. I'll take pictures of the scabbard break for repair advice when I'm off work. It looks to me like carpenter's glue will work. You've given me a lot of historical references to go through. I appreciate it! Where do I get the staining compound? I may not use it, though. The milky look reminds me of a Fremen crysknife from Frank Herbert's 'Dune': a very influential book in my life.

The hilt only fits three of my fingers and my pinky rests on the pommel -- a really bad grip. I wouldn't want to fight with it. What sort of pommeled hilts give an extra few centimeters? Or what style hilts have no pommel?

I'm happy to get addicted to kerises! My audio and watch hobbies have cost a serious grip. The keris hobby is much more affordable. If it turns out this keris has meteorite I will be one happy dude. I read that an odd green color showing in the sunlight is a sign of meteorite. I'll have a good idea when the blade is thoroughly clean.

Thank you very much! I'm already looking forward to a new keris!

QuisUtDeus · 10th May 2019, 10:28 PM

The blade doesn't fit nicely into the scabbard. The angle of the blade base is too acute. As was mentioned earlier, the blade is short and the scabbard too long. It's not a bad fit, but it does bother me a little.

I'm happy it's a decent blade! Thanks for the identification. I'll keep all the parts as you've all suggested but I will be on the look-out for better fitting gear. The mendak really has to go, it's too warped.

Thanks for your help!

QuisUtDeus · 10th May 2019, 10:37 PM

Blade length was around 14.5 cm I think. I'm at work, can't check till I get home.

It does have a real aura about it. I've got a few modern blades (no kerises) and the steel is just steel. There's no kind of field about it. Is this field normal for a keris? Any members out there into mystic stuff like myself?

David · 10th May 2019, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuisUtDeus

Thank you! My name's not Michael, but St. Michael is one reason I've entered the keris community. A few effigies of him wield a keris. I've actually found a reason for this but it might be too far afield to post in the forum. I do think many of you would find it interesting, though. The reason begins with the keris, then delves into architecture, ethnography, astronomy, and ultimately eschatology. It gets pretty far out.

I would be very interested in seeing an effigy of St. Michael wielding a keris. I think you will find that what the saint is holding in these effigies is a generic flamboyant sword. The keris is not defined by a wavy blade and in fact most keris are of the straight blade or lurus variety. Still, i am glad that St. Michael could get you here, even if through an accidental misunderstanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuisUtDeus

I'm already picking up new parts. I'll save them for a nicer blade. I'll take pictures of the scabbard break for repair advice when I'm off work. It looks to me like carpenter's glue will work. You've given me a lot of historical references to go through. I appreciate it! Where do I get the staining compound? I may not use it, though. The milky look reminds me of a Fremen crysknife from Frank Herbert's 'Dune': a very influential book in my life.
The hilt only fits three of my fingers and my pinky rests on the pommel -- a really bad grip. I wouldn't want to fight with it. What sort of pommeled hilts give an extra few centimeters? Or what style hilts have no pommel?

Well, if you are already picking up new parts i suppose you will now need to buy more keris and are already addicted.

I believe carpenter's glue will do the trick. Just work sparingly and cleanly.
To create warangan is a more difficult issue, especially in the United States (as well as other countries). It is a mixture of arsenic and lime juice. For the most consistent results a laboratory quality arsenic is best, but it is very difficult to legally obtain in the States. Suitable arsenic can be obtained from the mineral realgar, which is an arsenic sulfide crystal and i believe that is legal, but it is much harder to prepare as you need to grind the mineral up for use.
I do appreciate that you are finding your own reference points for this keris (St. Michael, the milkiness of Fremen's crysknife) and i will certainly not try to convince you that might be the wrong approach to take when developing an interest in keris, but i will share my own traditionalist approach anyway. I personally don't collect keris to convert them to my own personal paradigm, but rather to try to explore and understand the paradigm of another culture and era.
You will find that keris handles often don't fit the modern Western hand that well. They were indeed made for a typically smaller grip. I suppose that if i did intend to actually fight with certain keris in my collection i would have to consider a hilt form that better fits my hand, but i certainly have no intention of ever doing so and i am more concerned with keeping a keris as close to it's tradition form and condition as i can. Of course, your mileage may vary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuisUtDeus

I'm happy to get addicted to kerises! My audio and watch hobbies have cost a serious grip. The keris hobby is much more affordable. If it turns out this keris has meteorite I will be one happy dude. I read that an odd green color showing in the sunlight is a sign of meteorite. I'll have a good idea when the blade is thoroughly clean.

I don't want to burst a bubble here, but very few keris were ever made with meteoric pamor. These were mostly high end court blades made after the late 18th century. Green color showing on a blade in the sunlight is probably far more indicative of a poorly washed blade than one containing meteorite. There is quite a lot of nonsense written about the keris i'm afraid. You cannot always believe what you read.
Oh, and i can also assure you that keris hobby can be just as expensive, if not more, than an audio and/or watch hobby, and i do know that some watches can get pretty expensive.

Rick · 11th May 2019, 01:08 AM

Saint Michael's flamboyant sword aside; if you want to see the keris in classic European art check out The Blinding of Samson by Rembrandt.

I understand enthusiasm; but learn more about this weapon form and its meaning within the culture before spending too much hard earned cash.
An educated buyer ends up happier in the long run.

"I read that an odd green color showing in the sunlight is a sign of meteorite. I'll have a good idea when the blade is thoroughly clean."

Well, this is not true; what you have been doing to the blade by cleaning is actually removing the original stain that the blade was given.

QuisUtDeus · 11th May 2019, 05:34 AM

This is my first time learning about swords at all. Thanks for the flamboyant sword reference! It helps a lot. Things make better sense, now.

I'm sorry if I bother anyone with my customization ideas. I wouldn't dare do such a thing to a beautifully put together piece. The one I got is already mixed up, so I don't see anything wrong with experimenting. I'm learning through deconstruction, I suppose. It's my nature to work backwards.

If I've removed the original stain, it's ok. The rust and gunk really bothers me. I can find a way to stain the blade again, I'm sure. I leave the country every so often.

Don't worry about bursting bubbles. It just means more learning for me. I might buy a meteorite ring to act as a mendak. It is a really powerful substance.

Do you think the following arsenic will work? It seems to be available for sale online.

11th May 2019, 01:08 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Saint Michael's flamboyant sword aside; if you want to see the keris in classic European art check out The Blinding of Samson by Rembrandt. I understand enthusiasm; but learn more about this weapon form and its meaning within the culture before spending too much hard earned cash. An educated buyer ends up happier in the long run. "I read that an odd green color showing in the sunlight is a sign of meteorite. I'll have a good idea when the blade is thoroughly clean." Well, this is not true; what you have been doing to the blade by cleaning is actually removing the original stain that the blade was given. Last edited by Rick; 11th May 2019 at 01:27 AM.

11th May 2019, 05:34 AM	#8
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	This is my first time learning about swords at all. Thanks for the flamboyant sword reference! It helps a lot. Things make better sense, now. I'm sorry if I bother anyone with my customization ideas. I wouldn't dare do such a thing to a beautifully put together piece. The one I got is already mixed up, so I don't see anything wrong with experimenting. I'm learning through deconstruction, I suppose. It's my nature to work backwards. If I've removed the original stain, it's ok. The rust and gunk really bothers me. I can find a way to stain the blade again, I'm sure. I leave the country every so often. Don't worry about bursting bubbles. It just means more learning for me. I might buy a meteorite ring to act as a mendak. It is a really powerful substance. Do you think the following arsenic will work? It seems to be available for sale online. Attached Images

10th May 2019, 05:17 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I will try to answer some of your questions. Firstly, this keris is presented in Balinese dress, but i am having trouble seeing it as a true Balinese blade. The greneng on the gonjo is cut rather poorly for a Bali keris and the gonjo itself does not look right and the sogokan do not seem to be nearly cut deep enough for Balinese standards. I believe the pamor is the standard Beras Wutah - scattered rice grain, but the blade certainly hasn't been treated in the typical Balinese manner of keeping the surface polished smooth. It is also a bit shorter than most Balinese keris of this era. I suppose that a Lombok origin is possible and i have seen Lombok keris in this particular sheath kekandikan style before, but i really can't be sure. I am inclined to think the blade may have a Maduran origin. Despite the obvious wear on this blade it appears more contemporary to my eye than older. If you are concerned about "over dressing" this blade i personally would not seek any new components for this ensemble. The pelet timoho wood that is used is considered quite desirable and frankly this keris blade is fairly mediocre as Bali style blades go and does not require fancier dress. As for the handle, it isn't really mediocre per se, it is a very common Balinese bondalan form and i see no reason to change it. That it does not fit well in your hand should not make it unsuitable. If this were mine i would cleanly repair the now broken sheath, clean up the uwer (mendak is a Javanese term) and re-stain if possible after fully cleaning the blade. A re-stain with warangan will do wonders for making theirs blade more attractive IMHO. All that said, i would not consider this a "bad" first keris. I think most of us probably faired far worse on our first outing. What is always most important about any keris is that you like it. And just a warning...they are addictive! LOL!

10th May 2019, 08:52 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	This is a quite decent kris IMO and it looks to have some age, including the blade (see the rust between the gonjo and the base of the blade). The Lombok origin seems a fair assumption, the blade has 15 luks indeed and the pamor pattern is a standard one, may be identified as Beras Wutah/ Ilining Warih according to the Neka book. Is the blade fitting neatly into the scabbard? Like David I would change nothing to it except cleaning the blade and uwer, and repairing the scabbard if needed. What is the blade length? Regards

10th May 2019, 08:54 PM	#3
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Thank you! My name's not Michael, but St. Michael is one reason I've entered the keris community. A few effigies of him wield a keris. I've actually found a reason for this but it might be too far afield to post in the forum. I do think many of you would find it interesting, though. The reason begins with the keris, then delves into architecture, ethnography, astronomy, and ultimately eschatology. It gets pretty far out. I'll get back to the subject. I'm already picking up new parts. I'll save them for a nicer blade. I'll take pictures of the scabbard break for repair advice when I'm off work. It looks to me like carpenter's glue will work. You've given me a lot of historical references to go through. I appreciate it! Where do I get the staining compound? I may not use it, though. The milky look reminds me of a Fremen crysknife from Frank Herbert's 'Dune': a very influential book in my life. The hilt only fits three of my fingers and my pinky rests on the pommel -- a really bad grip. I wouldn't want to fight with it. What sort of pommeled hilts give an extra few centimeters? Or what style hilts have no pommel? I'm happy to get addicted to kerises! My audio and watch hobbies have cost a serious grip. The keris hobby is much more affordable. If it turns out this keris has meteorite I will be one happy dude. I read that an odd green color showing in the sunlight is a sign of meteorite. I'll have a good idea when the blade is thoroughly clean. Thank you very much! I'm already looking forward to a new keris!

10th May 2019, 10:28 PM	#4
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	The blade doesn't fit nicely into the scabbard. The angle of the blade base is too acute. As was mentioned earlier, the blade is short and the scabbard too long. It's not a bad fit, but it does bother me a little. I'm happy it's a decent blade! Thanks for the identification. I'll keep all the parts as you've all suggested but I will be on the look-out for better fitting gear. The mendak really has to go, it's too warped. Thanks for your help!

10th May 2019, 10:37 PM	#5
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Blade length was around 14.5 cm I think. I'm at work, can't check till I get home. It does have a real aura about it. I've got a few modern blades (no kerises) and the steel is just steel. There's no kind of field about it. Is this field normal for a keris? Any members out there into mystic stuff like myself?