Massive Spanish Naval Flintlock Blunderbuss Swivel Gun for comment

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, i ignore where you have read that such habit was "pretty common" (certainly not in your bookmobile library ) but certainly in pages with a Hollywoodian ambiance ... if i may .
Let me transcribe a Wiki passage, for one, as visibly put in an English far better than mine:
The blunderbuss could be considered an early shotgun, and served in similar roles. While various old accounts often list the blunderbuss as being loaded with various scrap iron, rocks, or wood, resulting in damage to the bore of the gun, it was typically loaded with a number of lead balls smaller than the bore diameter.
But to admit that such concept as you quote is far from an 'exponential gauge', let me introduce to you a character described by a Dutch priest called Philippus Baldaeus (1632-1672) as being a Portuguese soldier that, during the first siege of Diu (1538), having ran out of bullets but still having a powder charge, decided to pluck one of his teeth and load his musket with it for an extra shot, for the surprise of the enemy, who had considered him out of ammo.
How about that for an approach ? .

(Oil on canvas by A.A. Canelhas)

.

LOL! My Hollywoodian affinity can truly appreciate the drama in this tale!!
and reviewing more into old notes here in the Bookmobile, I can see where my 'fired from the hip' wording has misfired.

Actually my description of the use of various objects such as nails, glass etc. was meant to refer to the breech block deck guns (murderer) I was noting, rather than these full stocked blunderbusses.

This perception was further in thoughts of the use of these materials in cannon on vessels in the 18th c. and this type 'shot' was termed 'langrage'. As the cannon were with much heavier barrels, there was less chance of damaging the barrel than with these smaller guns. If I recall, one of the cannon excavated from the QAR (Queen Annes Revenge, 1718) still retained such a load (C19).

As Cutlass Collector very well noted, the use of various debris and 'junk' could easily jam and cause explosion in the barrel. Other arguments suggested that nails were too expensive to produce and unlikely to be used, that glass would fragment and be ineffective etc. However, it would seem, in the heat of the moment, and with desperate measures necessary, such measures could result regardless.

I would very much agree with Peterson et al, in that the flared bell type barrel would better facilitate loading in adverse conditions.

Regarding the notion of this type barrel causing a wider spread of shot, I appreciate the explanations here in noting that the shot pattern would hold to the bore of the gun. Not being a 'shooter' myself, my assumption was that in low velocity discharge of shot, it would be impeded against air and would dissipate moving forward. It would seem my 'physics' assumption would be n/a.

In any case, thanks guys for these explanations! Always learning here.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... As the cannon were with much heavier barrels, there was less chance of damaging the barrel than with these smaller guns...

However cannon barrel wearing was not an absent factor, specially with early ammunition, such as stone balls, used in bombards (pedreiros). Despite those being wrapped or bagged, their rough texture damaged barrel bores in that, after a determined number of shots (they 100), cannons were due to reenter arsenals for remelting.

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting notes on artillery, and it makes perfect sense that the wear on cannon barrels internally would be effected over time by discharge of materials, not to mention fouling from detonated black powder. It does not seem, of course. that stones as ammunition would apply to the deterioration of shipboard cannon, but the analogy is well placed.

Here I would note however that the 'spread' (uh....scope? )of the discussion seems to have expanded a bit. I think I may be the culprit here as I included the use of 'langrage' (=sundry materials along with varied ball) as shot in cannon...……...however this was intended toward a maritime setting. What I had noted was that the heavier cannon barrels were not as susceptible to internal barrel damage by use of such diverse ammunition as would be the case with the RAIL GUNS that are the topic of the OP if such was used in them.

Bringing in the 'choke' a bit more when I entered the discussion, despite having limited exposure to guns and artillery, I wanted to respond to Cap'n Marks note on these kinds of rail guns used aboard privateers and pirate vessels. Again, this was addressed to maritime matters as far as these guns, which led to the blunderbuss spectrum (due to flared barrels). ….and the use of 'langrage' in cannon.

While such miscellaneous material was used as shot on these pirate and privateer vessels, it does not seem (as perfectly explained by Cutlass Collector) that such use in these rail guns (or blunderbusses) would have been a good thing to do.

The discussion also addressed the purpose of the flared barrels on these blunderbuss/rail guns as being primarily for loading in adverse circumstances such as would be present in the pitching of a ships deck etc. Addressing the shot dispersion theory, again perfectly explained by Cutlass Collector dispelled the notion that a flared barrel was to 'spread' the shot more widely in discharge.

I just wanted to reiterate the elements of the discussion here, and to say again how much I appreciate these outstanding explanations on the varied aspects that have pertained.
Cerjak, thank you again for sharing this rail gun!!! Very nice piece!!!

[Fernando K]

Hello

Just to say that it seems to me that the primitive inscription was P M and that the stick of the R was added later, that is why it is badly inclined, or is an incision that already existed when the punch was stamped with the letters

[Fernando K]

Hello

Assuming that the initials are PM, in the "Dizionario delle armi", edited by Mondadori, register two entries for PM:

P. M. "Acronym of Munich Peter"

P. M. "acronym of Meitinger Paul"

and going to the entrances:

Munich, Peter and Fiedrich German gunsmiths, of Soingen perhaps relatives both, who worked in the beginning / half of the six hundred, also Denmark. They were very dear.

Meitinger Paul. Armorer who worked in Innbrusch, in the second half of the Cinquecientos

Affectionately

[Fernando K]

Hello

Someone who has access to STOCKEL to verify or discard these opinions ....

Affectionately

[Jim McDougall]

I am puzzled with the business on the RM marking, and Fernando K, very astute observation on the letters perhaps being PM with the 'P' later altered to an 'R'.
I don't have Stockel, and thus don't have any entries for Paul Meitinger, an Innsbruck armorer.
However I do have references to PM, Peter Munich as well as Friedrich, both were Solingen swordsmiths working in the 17th century, and seemingly part of a family by this name. However Peter often signed 'Munch'. His mark (mid 17th) was a bishops head flanked by initials PM .

While armorers and of course swordsmiths often did also work as gunmakers. I have never heard of the 'Munich's' being other than swordsmiths.

If Peter indeed marked the lock of a gun, why would it have a crown? and why would the 'P' be fashioned into a 'R'.

Also, I have always thought of the circular fixture on the lock denoting a Spanish lock ('miguelet'?) so why would a Spanish lock be made in Solingen?

I do not mean to discount the theory, but honestly do wonder on these matters.

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello

Someone who has access to STOCKEL to verify or discard these opinions ....

Affectionately

I don't know which version of the Neue Stöckel you have but in my last edition there is neither mentioned a Peter Munich or Munch nor a Paul Meitinger. Both names are not to be found. The only reported gunmakers in Solingen have been:

J.G. Jagenberger
Clemens Kalthoff
Johann Kalthoff
Mathias Kalthoff
F.W. Ortmann
Peiper & Co
Heinrich Peter
Heinrich Riffelmann

By the way: After having enlarged the crowned mark on the lockplate as big as possibble I am always still convinced that this is a "RM" and not a "PM"

corrado26