Very Nice Nimcha

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th April 2019, 03:29 PM

The date on this weapons scabbard says 1110 AH which is about 1689AD

AHMAD BIN ABDULLAH is on one line of text...the one nearest the hilt.

The other line I'm not sure about.

Jim McDougall · 29th April 2019, 04:06 PM

Not at all Fernando, this is a most interesting look into these etymologies, and while it has been 'lifetimes' since I fenced, I admit little of this terminology was ever present in my mind

Still,as we examine blades looking for historical clues, it is important to use correct terms in notations, so my 'faux pas' was unfortunate despite deeper analysis not needed as the correction put things on track.

In retrospect I would retract the word jibberish that I used as well, and used illegible or indecipherable, to explain the notions of some Arabic inscriptions being so. It is a most complex topic, and it seems such intricacies completely get things off center.

Midelburgo, thank you for the note on the stortas, and I have always very much agreed with the late Tony North, that these were certainly instrumental in some degree in the development of these Meditteranean swords. The fact that so many Italian influences are apparent in many ethnographic weapon forms compelled me to get a copy of the huge (and expnsive) Boccia & Coelho "Armi Bianche Italiene", where the evidences can be seen.

Ibrahiim, thank you for that translation!! Very sound evidence that is really helpful as we continue the investigation here. It is really good to get a well based look into these swords which will advance our core knowledge at last. There has been too much incomplete over the years.

.[/QUOTE]

ariel · 29th April 2019, 07:59 PM

In defence of the " gibberish": some Central European swords have inscriptions in " pseudo-arabic" style. Obviously, they are " legible" but certainly "undecipherable".

fernando · 29th April 2019, 09:30 PM

Sorry my ignorance Dr. but, if they are legible (lego), they are readable, hence interpretable.
But if they are 'pseudo, it is when they are undecipherable, hence uninterpretable... right ?

.

ariel · 29th April 2019, 10:09 PM

By legible I meant one can trace their configurations. But they are “pseudo”, I.e. without meaning.

Jim McDougall · 29th April 2019, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

By legible I meant one can trace their configurations. But they are “pseudo”, I.e. without meaning.

Thanks Ariel, 'psuedo' is much better term than 'jibberish', my bad

What I was thinking of is the fascination with 'oriental' exotica (which included Eastern, i.e Arabic, Middle Eastern) decoration on weaponry from 17th through 18th in Europe. Naturally the European artisans had little command of the complexities of Islamic calligraphy, so artistically applied simulations of some of the lettering etc. with these kinds of designs on weaponry.

29th April 2019, 09:30 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	perplexity Sorry my ignorance Dr. but, if they are legible (lego), they are readable, hence interpretable. But if they are 'pseudo, it is when they are undecipherable, hence uninterpretable... right ? .

29th April 2019, 03:29 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The date on this weapons scabbard says 1110 AH which is about 1689AD AHMAD BIN ABDULLAH is on one line of text...the one nearest the hilt. The other line I'm not sure about.

29th April 2019, 04:06 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Not at all Fernando, this is a most interesting look into these etymologies, and while it has been 'lifetimes' since I fenced, I admit little of this terminology was ever present in my mind Still,as we examine blades looking for historical clues, it is important to use correct terms in notations, so my 'faux pas' was unfortunate despite deeper analysis not needed as the correction put things on track. In retrospect I would retract the word jibberish that I used as well, and used illegible or indecipherable, to explain the notions of some Arabic inscriptions being so. It is a most complex topic, and it seems such intricacies completely get things off center. Midelburgo, thank you for the note on the stortas, and I have always very much agreed with the late Tony North, that these were certainly instrumental in some degree in the development of these Meditteranean swords. The fact that so many Italian influences are apparent in many ethnographic weapon forms compelled me to get a copy of the huge (and expnsive) Boccia & Coelho "Armi Bianche Italiene", where the evidences can be seen. Ibrahiim, thank you for that translation!! Very sound evidence that is really helpful as we continue the investigation here. It is really good to get a well based look into these swords which will advance our core knowledge at last. There has been too much incomplete over the years. .[/QUOTE]

29th April 2019, 07:59 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In defence of the " gibberish": some Central European swords have inscriptions in " pseudo-arabic" style. Obviously, they are " legible" but certainly "undecipherable".

29th April 2019, 10:09 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	By legible I meant one can trace their configurations. But they are “pseudo”, I.e. without meaning.