Very Nice Nimcha

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

No complications Fernando ...

As i said Jim, and you well quoted, i was not addressing you but Peter, to hint him not to widen the scope of our both conversation on the forte issue.
Regarding the purpose of these cartouches, and considering that the sources mentioned are to rely in that their contents is (always) impossible to decode, we would be one step away to realize that they are no more than an arabesque fantasy, and that their use is hardly one of indicating an (any) arsenal or any possible identification, but only object of a symbolic attitude.
In other words, what would be the purpose of a writing that you can't read ?
Mmm ... food for thought.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

As i said Jim, and you well quoted, i was not addressing you but Peter, to hint him not to widen the scope of our both conversation on the forte issue.
Regarding the purpose of these cartouches, and considering that the sources mentioned are to rely in that their contents is (always) impossible to decode, we would be one step away to realize that they are no more than an arabesque fantasy, and that their use is hardly one of indicating an (any) arsenal or any possible identification, but only object of a symbolic attitude.
In other words, what would be the purpose of a writing that you can't read ?
Mmm ... food for thought.

I know, and actually Ibrahiim in awareness that my faux pas on the term was moot in this conversation retrieved a well placed thread of earlier that was focused on sword nomenclature. Having that informative thread, which is now concurrent, will provide material so that anyone interested in the particulars can study them without troubling this thread.

I am not sure exactly what you are suggesting on the cartouches, but I was not implying that these are in any way an 'arabesque' feature . Those kinds of decorative 'attitudes' are reserved usually for European and colonial facsimiles of weapons made in an exotica sense.

The fact that these cartouches seem to be made by a 'stamp' which was produced for some sort of 'official' function would suggest placement on the blade to signify such. These kinds of functions I would think are of the kind carried out by arsenals, or whatever central place the receiving of trade goods/blades might be.

With these stamps, over time they became degenerated and caused slight variation in the characters within. Also poorly placed stamps would cause certain anomalies, factor in degeneration over time with aging in addition.

Though we know that, for example in the Sudanese situation during the Mahdiyya, the 'thuluth' emblazoned acid etched calligraphy was long thought to often be 'jibberish' that illiterate tribesmen would be impressed by. However recent studies have revealed that these are often couplets of verses and phrases, which are sometimes repeated in motif like character rather than properly scribed wording.

Very true, what purpose would illegible wording or characters have? Surely it depends and in situations there are coded and disguised inscriptions, acrostics and other arcane wordings designed for talismanic purposes. These are intended only for recognition by the initiated.

These cartouches I am sure were viably intended for recognition by the proper authorities, but probably, like the 'Passau wolf' and other well known markings probably gained a significance of quality of their own regardless if readable or not. In these cases, the placement in position on the blade would carry that significance as noted.
The fact that certain writers have noted these markings illegible or indecipherable does not mean they were intended that way, but that in their present state, they were not to the writer.

[fernando]

Jim, i would not concur with the impression that, illegible arabesques (jibberish per you) only appear in European or exotica items; on the contrary, when i recall discussions had here in the past over diverse situations.
But i will not intrude any further with side topic considerations; back to the beautiful Charles's Nimcha appreciation .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, i would not concur with the impression that, illegible arabesques (jibberish per you) only appear in European or exotica items; on the contrary, when i recall discussions had here in the past over diverse situations.
But i will not intrude any further with side topic considerations; back to the beautiful Charles's Nimcha appreciation .

While I do not wish to detract from the discussion, I think it only fair to point out, quid pro quo. that in my post #38 I did not say that 'illegible arabesques' were 'jibberish' appearing only on European and exotica items.

What I said was that 'arabesque', the term you used, and such 'attitudes' (again your term) were usually reserved for European and exotica items, with no mention of jibberish. The Arabesque term as you know is an art history term describing rhythmic patterns and interlaced foliage, often used to fill empty space or dynamically complete the composition.

When I used the term jibberish it was to describe 'previously held' notions that the thuluth calligraphy on Sudanese Mahdist weapons was jibberish, and noted that recent research found it was in fact tangible verses in repetition. Those instances were I believe the long ago discussions which I recall, as I was one who was inclined to agree in those times. Its amazing how much we learn as we get older and thanks to these kinds of details often shared in discussions here.

In returning to the topic if I may, add some other details I have found that might be of interest on these markings on these Algerian blades . In my notes I found another of these triple fuller blades, but in the location of blade noted......there is a name ZAUOE, spelled out, but in exactly the same location. The registers list this man as a gunmaker in Marseilles 1757-61.
Obviously a Maghrebi name, but in France, and it is notable that gun makers often, even typically, outfitted blades.

In looking at the fantastic array of weapons from Valletta that Teodor shared, in this huge assortment of nimsha, none of them had these markings in that blade quadrant. Could it be that these examples predated the use of such markings? or that perhaps they were never in the regions (Maghrebi littoral or Marseilles?) where such markings were used.
Perhaps rather than makers marks, or arsenal, these were outfitters stamps in one of the entrepots either Meditteranean or Maghrebi.

Just more food for thought, and these considerations I think might be important to the thorough examination of Charles' sword.

[midelburgo]

There are some old hypothesis about nimchas being an evolution of Italian XVth century stortas.

Some circunstancial evidence.

[fernando]

Dear Jim, it is i alone, who doesn't much to offer on this topic.
Concerning the actual difference in nomenclature between 'arabesque' and 'jibberish' ...
I have used arabesque (from the Italian ((also Portuguese))arabesco) as the term i had at hand, as intendedly meaning a decoration detail rather than pure arabic caligraphy. I wouldn't use the term jibberish (propper gibberish) as i gather that this is perhaps more indicative of 'speaking' rapidly and inarticulately, and not 'writing' in such mode. But when i quoted your mentioning the jibberish term, my intention was to attest that we were both meaning the same thing.
But speaking of fine tunings, allow me to remind (in double) the intrinsic distinction between recazzo and forte, such as not underlined in Peter's drawing link.
While the forte defines a determined area (section) of the blade, as in principle its strongest part, the recazo, while circumstantially associated with a inherent location, is a term that refers an added value created in a blade, being a blunt (non edged) zone in which you can grip the blade with your fingers, to better (wrist) handle the sword, acquiring a wider angle for sword combat. So we have that, while blades could/should 'always' include a forte, the recazo is not necessarily a 'ever present' part of the blade, this having being a later 'invention', i guess during the XVI century; according to some, a resource more practicable in Western terms, being more of an esthetical detail in the Orient, when it exists.
Perhaps you knew all this; sorry for the bore.
Take care .


.

[Jim McDougall]

In continuing the examination of the circular markings at 'ricasso' on Charles' magnificent example as well as others presented, I thought perhaps the following might be relevant.


I wanted to add these two exemplars of what I am noting on these stamped cartouche circumstances, and which I think may be somehow connected to arsenal or some sort of arms repository. The first is the page from Briggs, ("European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers", JAAS, Vol. V #2, 1965) and here (p.78-79) he notes on Algerian sabres, "...the ricasso is stamped (in one side only) with a circular mark containing an illegible combination of Arabic letters in high relief".
In the illustration he shows two Algerian blades, the second one with the ANDREA FERARA (which ensures a Solingen origin) and while it does not apparently have the circular cartouche (or it is simply not noted) he does suggest it is of the same origin (see fullers).

The next illustration is from "The Indian Sword" (P. Rawson, 1969) and shows a tulwar from Lahore (based on the hilt), but the blade I believe from probably Rajasthan or further Northwest regions. Note the squared cartouche at the ricasso in similar location to those on the Algerian blades. Here the inscription has characters which may be Arabic, but uncertain.

I had a sword with virtually identical markings in same locations, including the circular at center of blade which appears to be a trisula. In research I was told the inscription in the squared cartouche was Urdu, a lingua francia of Northwest regions which was combined with Arabic or Persian. With the trisula mark, I have seen others with what appears to be a katar instead of the trisula.

I am entering these as examples suggesting that this practice of deeply stamping cartouches at this blade location seems to have been done in Indian areas (with Arabic presence) as well as Algerian. Whether connected or the purpose I cannot say, but the comparison is for further consideration.