Sudanese Command Batons

[LJ]

I assume this is the sort of thing being discussed.

I've wondered for some time what it is: something had obviously dropped off the end, leaving me puzzled what the item was. Without this sort of discussion forum I might never have had any idea as to its identification.

[TVV]

Yes LJ, this is another example of these objects.

I just read the text to the illustrations in Panga Na Visu and if my poor German has not failed me, the use Zirngibl suggests for these Cult spears is a little out there: per Zirngibl, these were used during so-called "Cleansing of the Body through Pain" ceremonies by extreme Muslim fanatics to self-inflict wounds and communicate to God that way.

The literature quoted as a source is not in the Bibliography. Maybe someone would be familiar with these sources:

Fagan, W. Mount Clemens, o. J. Abb. u. Text Nr. 373-380
Pascha, E. o. J. page 109

[Martin Lubojacky]

Small remarks which could, maybe, contribute to the clarification of the use:

The cone/nob made of black clay is, in fact, relatively breakable. The small red bids inserted in it are not bids made of glass etc - it is seed of some tree and in many cases they already dropped out (this does not seem to be durable command baton like eg mace/bulava) It is really long time and I don´t remember well already, but I heard the clay and seeds had some meaning for Mahdist monks...

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

Small remarks which could, maybe, contribute to the clarification of the use:

The cone/nob made of black clay is, in fact, relatively breakable. The small red bids inserted in it are not bids made of glass etc - it is seed of some tree and in many cases they already dropped out (this does not seem to be durable command baton like eg mace/bulava) It is really long time and I don´t remember well already, but I heard the clay and seeds had some meaning for Mahdist monks...

Oh, so then this is what Zirngibl means by "decorated with poisonous seeds". I was not quite sure how to interpret that part when I read the text to the illustration in Panga Na Visu, but your explanation makes perfect sense now.

So I guess what we have are dancing spears, meant for ritualistic use by fervent dervishes in Sudan.

[Kubur]

As Jim says (it's not a quotation) "it's amazing what we can learn on this forum"...

I'm convinced that these batons or maces were used by dervishes.

Originally Posted by TVV

So I guess what we have are dancing spears, meant for ritualistic use by fervent dervishes in Sudan.

Teodor I don't think that you should dissociate religious use and military use.
These objects are not maces, not spears either...
You can find many books and articles about the role of the dervishes and sufis in the Sudanese armies. The mahdi was a sufi. You can find a lot of books on the role of sufis and dervishes in the ottoman army and also in the Safavid army.

We should be humbles and it's already a big step to say that these batons were used by dervishes...
During the battles to command units, for prayers before the battles or to bury the dead like in the Ottoman armies...who knows...

[Edster]

Teodor,

I read Pradines' paper you referenced. I'm not sure that he proved his points.
1. While Sudanese troops (as "other ranks") typically Nuba, were in Greece, they likely were not in command positions. He provides no evidence that they were. Nuba were highly regarded and used as slave troops by the Ottomans, later impressed by the Mahdist and as free men by the British at Omdurman.
2. Is the end piece actually a sphero-conical container? Doesn't look bulbous enough and the end hole is too big.They may appear simiiar to s-c common from Romania to Central Asia. I think they were purpose made pieces, thick enough to be drilled to accept the seeds or beads. While some of these batons may have been collected after Omdurman, I saw no evidence as to who used them or for what purpose.
3. The Mahdi essentially outlawed participation in sufi activities during his reign. As far as I know, none of the British captives or others who wrote reports of the Mahdiya mentioned religious officials using such a baton.Much of these reports were propaganda, but they and later histories were pretty inclusive and were good observers.

I like your batons, but while he weaves an interesting story, I'm not convinced it is what he says it is.

Regards,
Ed

[TVV]

Thank you Ed, I agree that the knobs do not look like sphero-conical vessels, at least on the spears/scepters discussed here. It also looks like these were in use well before the Mahdi started his rebellion, with their use continuing during the Mahdiya but not originating during those times. The command baton theory so far lacks factual support, so we should probably dismiss it for now.

If I am interpreting your post right, you have not found anything in contemporary accounts to support Zirngibl's statement that these were used by religious fanatics for self-inflicting wounds either, correct?

Teodor