dutch smallsword with japanese influence

cornelistromp · 9th April 2019, 11:11 AM

two similar 18thC smallswords made from black fire-gilt metal, Suassa ?
the grip pommel quilllon block and pas dáne are out of one piece, this requires a very high level of craftsmanship!
the lines are clear and sharp, really works of art.

one with the blade marked by the Amsterdam swordsman Jean Hossee, the other with Japanese ? characters.
The decoration of insects, leaves and Japanese? workers with the characteristic hats.
these hilts are probably made in asia and mounted in Asia or Holland.

Jim McDougall · 10th April 2019, 12:09 AM

Thank you Jasper for sharing these two examples which show fascinating comparison.
Aylward (1945. p.57) he describes 'Tonquinese' made in the Far East for the VOC between 1710 and 1750 but claims this could not be correct as Dampier (from "Dampiers Voyages", Mansfield, 1906) in noting all the manufacturers at Tonquin, there is no mention of swords being made there. He notes further that the VOC withdrew their factory there in 1707.

Here he suggests that the work went to Peking, and that afterwards, "..the company brought over some Chinese workmen to Europe, who produced in Amsterdam 'hilts of similar character' which were fitted with blades made in Holland and Solingen".

This seems contradictory as if no swords were made in Asia, then what hilts of 'similar character' were made by the Chinese workmen in Amsterdam?

Also, you have noted that Tonquin (whose location is not specified in Aylward) was actually/probably Tokyo. The shakudo (black bronze) described is, if I presume correctly, a Japanese alloyed metal and process...not Chinese.

The so called Nanban trade into Japan by Europeans (from 1543) ended with the seclusion of Japan with the exception of the VOC who were permitted to maintain an enclave in Dejima (off Nagasaki) from 1638 +

Here I think I found something (an article which I had stuffed in the pages of Aylward):
"Smallswords in Japan?" by Dr.Peter Bleed (Man at Arms" Vol.34, #4. Aug. 2012) notes that through the Nanban (Southern Barbarian trade as derisively termed) which influenced Japanese artisans and artists.
In this article the author notes the reference from Aylward about bringing Chinese artisans to Holland, however "...recent scholars examining swords of this type agree they were made by Japanese craftsmen".

With this it is also noted that conversely, motifs, styles of Europe in these smallswords influenced what are known as 'nanban' tsuba, and that most of the motifs borrow from Chinese influences but in degree some of the European. Most of these examples date second quarter 18th c.

Gustav · 10th April 2019, 06:07 PM

Just a remark - Tonquin cannot be Tokyo or vice versa for the swords in question, as Tokyo was called Edo until 1868, when the capital was moved.

Jim McDougall · 10th April 2019, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Just a remark - Tonquin cannot be Tokyo or vice versa for the swords in question, as Tokyo was called Edo until 1868, when the capital was moved.

Ahah!!
Thank you Gustav!! I had noticed the material referring to the Edo period,but did not notice this. So we are back to. ….why in this period in the 18th c. were these type hilts called Tonquinese? The only Tonquin I have ever found was North Viet Nam (Tonkin...well known from that War)…..with South Viet Nam Cochin China.
On the sword Jasper showed, the 'Japanese' hat noted looks to me very SE Asian, i.e. Thai, Burmese, Viet Namese?

cornelistromp · 12th April 2019, 04:39 PM

a mid 17thc hanger/smallsword with a chain between the guillon and the pommel cap and a paternoster carved on the blade which are both typical characteristics of Dutch 17thC smallswords.

note the carved ends of the guillons in the shape of the head of a Samurai and the demon mask carved on the loopguard

re: Asian Hat of post 5.
Luyken, Caspar and Engelbrecht
Boucquet. Portret Kangxi, keizer van China.
1698. Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam.
see attachement of emperor of china.(Dutch art)

best
jasper

Jim McDougall · 12th April 2019, 06:32 PM

Another breathtaking example Jasper, and as you note, the familiar Samurai hair style is seen......the illustration of the Chinese man also shows the hat similar as previously discussed.
More evidence of the stylistic exchanges between China and the Japan/Dutch trade alliance in Dejima (near Nagasaki). In Peter Bleed's article he notes the profound influence of Dutch (European) artistic style in the work in their famed tsuba (disc guards) on their swords. The Dutch in kind, adopted clearly Oriental motif in their hilts.

An aside, there were profoundly represented hilt styles produced in Sri Lanka for the Dutch, who also adopted their motif and kastane style in some hangers, and I believe a good number in ivory.

cornelistromp · 12th April 2019, 07:35 PM

Dutch Visions of Asia and Empire in the Seventeenth century

http://www1.umassd.edu/euro/2015papers/neumann.pdf

very interesting pdf

9th April 2019, 11:11 AM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	two similar 18thC smallswords made from black fire-gilt metal, Suassa ? the grip pommel quilllon block and pas dáne are out of one piece, this requires a very high level of craftsmanship! the lines are clear and sharp, really works of art. one with the blade marked by the Amsterdam swordsman Jean Hossee, the other with Japanese ? characters. The decoration of insects, leaves and Japanese? workers with the characteristic hats. these hilts are probably made in asia and mounted in Asia or Holland. Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 9th April 2019 at 11:22 AM.

12th April 2019, 04:39 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	a mid 17thc hanger/smallsword with a chain between the guillon and the pommel cap and a paternoster carved on the blade which are both typical characteristics of Dutch 17thC smallswords. note the carved ends of the guillons in the shape of the head of a Samurai and the demon mask carved on the loopguard re: Asian Hat of post 5. Luyken, Caspar and Engelbrecht Boucquet. Portret Kangxi, keizer van China. 1698. Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam. see attachement of emperor of china.(Dutch art) best jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 12th April 2019 at 05:51 PM.

10th April 2019, 12:09 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Thank you Jasper for sharing these two examples which show fascinating comparison. Aylward (1945. p.57) he describes 'Tonquinese' made in the Far East for the VOC between 1710 and 1750 but claims this could not be correct as Dampier (from "Dampiers Voyages", Mansfield, 1906) in noting all the manufacturers at Tonquin, there is no mention of swords being made there. He notes further that the VOC withdrew their factory there in 1707. Here he suggests that the work went to Peking, and that afterwards, "..the company brought over some Chinese workmen to Europe, who produced in Amsterdam 'hilts of similar character' which were fitted with blades made in Holland and Solingen". This seems contradictory as if no swords were made in Asia, then what hilts of 'similar character' were made by the Chinese workmen in Amsterdam? Also, you have noted that Tonquin (whose location is not specified in Aylward) was actually/probably Tokyo. The shakudo (black bronze) described is, if I presume correctly, a Japanese alloyed metal and process...not Chinese. The so called Nanban trade into Japan by Europeans (from 1543) ended with the seclusion of Japan with the exception of the VOC who were permitted to maintain an enclave in Dejima (off Nagasaki) from 1638 + Here I think I found something (an article which I had stuffed in the pages of Aylward): "Smallswords in Japan?" by Dr.Peter Bleed (Man at Arms" Vol.34, #4. Aug. 2012) notes that through the Nanban (Southern Barbarian trade as derisively termed) which influenced Japanese artisans and artists. In this article the author notes the reference from Aylward about bringing Chinese artisans to Holland, however "...recent scholars examining swords of this type agree they were made by Japanese craftsmen". With this it is also noted that conversely, motifs, styles of Europe in these smallswords influenced what are known as 'nanban' tsuba, and that most of the motifs borrow from Chinese influences but in degree some of the European. Most of these examples date second quarter 18th c.

10th April 2019, 06:07 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Just a remark - Tonquin cannot be Tokyo or vice versa for the swords in question, as Tokyo was called Edo until 1868, when the capital was moved.

12th April 2019, 06:32 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Another breathtaking example Jasper, and as you note, the familiar Samurai hair style is seen......the illustration of the Chinese man also shows the hat similar as previously discussed. More evidence of the stylistic exchanges between China and the Japan/Dutch trade alliance in Dejima (near Nagasaki). In Peter Bleed's article he notes the profound influence of Dutch (European) artistic style in the work in their famed tsuba (disc guards) on their swords. The Dutch in kind, adopted clearly Oriental motif in their hilts. An aside, there were profoundly represented hilt styles produced in Sri Lanka for the Dutch, who also adopted their motif and kastane style in some hangers, and I believe a good number in ivory.

12th April 2019, 07:35 PM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Dutch Visions of Asia and Empire in the Seventeenth century http://www1.umassd.edu/euro/2015papers/neumann.pdf very interesting pdf