Jamdhar katari - a theory

[kai]

Ok, back to blades:

Returning to the royal hunt in India in the light of Teriomachia. When the first person who as a rule considered himself "a great warrior" and "a fearless hunter", fired at a predator and only wounded him, in most cases the predator attacked in response. And then on its way there were alwais specially trained assistants in most cases with katars.

Seems like "heroic" deeds where mainly for the younger generation to prove themselves worthy (and/or chosen by god) - also a fairly global feature of human societies. I am in no way belittleing the courage as well as determination of hunters and warriors of old (and of many if not most cultures globally).

Because these daggers, by their origin and old main purpose, were "tiger daggers". Of course before 1840s.

So, aside from the probably inconclusive issue of semantics, you base this hypothesis on the possible predominance in paintings (obvious usage in hunting vs. warfare 10:1) only? Does carrying a blade count or does it have to be shown in action? While already having acknowledged that hunts may have been more numerous than battles? For which area on the Indian subcontinent and during which period?

What about early examples from southern India? If only limited to northern India, how do the proportion of blades with thickened tips relate to your hypothesis?


Mind you, I have no stake in this discussion of traditional usage - just trying to understand your reasoning and playing devil's advocate...

Regards,
Kai

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by kai

Ok, back to blades:

So, aside from the probably inconclusive issue of semantics, you base this hypothesis on the apparently biased proportion of paintings (obvious usage in hunting vs. warfare) only;

Biased proportion? It is a fact actually. Take an another proportion of pictures. Could you?

What about early examples from southern India?

[kai]

Biased proportion? It is a fact actually.

I wasn't accusing you of introducing any malicious bias - I did rephrase my earlier posting for clarity, hopefully.

Still, if you only count actions scenes while ignoring warriors carrying these blades in a battle scenario (probably not for fun), this will exaggerate any differences. Also you did not answer how you'd suggest to normalize the statistics assuming that hunting was more common than battles...

It's easy to come up with statistics; making probabilities a really convincing case is a tad tougher.

Regards,
Kai

[Mercenary]

OK

The design of katar is the best design to stop the attacking predator. It is more comfortable to wear and use than a heavy spear.

Most of the situations we know where a tiger was stopping are illustrated with the katar.

In India, whether we like it or not, one of its names is "tiger dagger".

Within the framework of the concept of Theriomachia, the wearing of this dagger could imply that its owner is able to accept the challenge of a predator.

Wearing a status weapon as an element of costume at the royal court, I hope, raises no questions.

In the chronicles you can find many descriptions of how the heads are cut off with a simple dagger. How to thrust with katar? Good luck in search.

- That is all.
- Thank you, Mercenary, that we have learned something more. But excuse us because we will argue further.
- No problem. I understand. I was just glad to share my knowledge

[Mercenary]

To be honest. The facts say that using the katar in battle is exception, unlike hunting or wearing a suit.
Only two:

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

To be honest. The facts say that using the katar in battle is exception, unlike hunting or wearing a suit.
Only two:

Only on these images there are examples of using katar during a battle????
But what about all the discourses about the terrible arms for punching armor ???

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

OK

The design of katar is the best design to stop the attacking predator.

First, what do you mean by "predator"? Does a human enemy qualify?

Second, there are many ways to skin a cat:-)

Personally, I would choose a good high-caliber rifle, just like big game hunters. They were available in 17-18 century India,
Then, a good " boar spear" would be my next choice: another 2-3 feet away from the teeth and claws could come handy. Regretfully, it would stop being a " boar spear" and become " tiger spear":-)

Third, African lion hunters manage quite well without katars: they use rather flimsily-looking spears and do just fine .

Short-bladed katar is no different from a garden variety knife: the latter can be gripped differently to be able to perform pure stabbing with straight arm and most knife-fighting techniques include this type of grip. Both knife and katar sacrifice safe distance for the dubious glory of a heroic kill with high likelihood of being maimed beyond recognition.

As an aside, Elgood's book on Hindu weapons shows statues with katars piercing some non-tiger looking animals: do I see hooves on some of them? If I am correct, would we call katar " buffalo dagger" or "horse dagger"?

I fully understand your excitement: it would have been very nice to pinpoint the original intended purpose of such an unusual weapon. I just find this hypothesis implausible. Sorry.

[ariel]

Going back to the original inquiry:
ANY handle of ANY dagger placed horizontally would resemble katar's handle placed vertically.
Deriving any far-reaching conclusions from that and supporting them with linguistic similarity of derivatives of the same root doesn't cut the mustard, IMHO.

[Ian]

As a somewhat irrelevant aside to this discussion, the Australian Customs Officers confiscated all of my katars when I returned to Australia last year. They classified them as "push daggers," which are prohibited imports into Australia. Push daggers are considered here to be too dangerous as weapons against other people to allow an ordinary citizen or collector to own one!


Ian.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

First, what do you mean by "predator"? Does a human enemy qualify?

Second, there are many ways to skin a cat:-)

Personally, I would choose a good high-caliber rifle, just like big game hunters. They were available in 17-18 century India,
Then, a good " boar spear" would be my next choice: another 2-3 feet away from the teeth and claws could come handy. Regretfully, it would stop being a " boar spear" and become " tiger spear":-)

Wow! Of course now we will see indian miniatures (of the appropriate period), confirmative to your words? Or is this another bla-bla-bla?

For now, I see that the Mercenary is showing compelling evidence, backed up by linguistics and Indian miniatures (of the relevant period). And those who disagree with him do not give any factual material .... They only voice their personal opinion, which is not confirmed by anything....

[fernando]

As far back as the XVI century, there was at least one fighting style which focused on fighting with a pair of katars, one in each hand.
(Dr Tobias Capwell - 2009).

A XVII century from Lahore with goddess kali and god shiva on the blade. It was used to pierce the chain mail of armours.
(Dr. Jorge Caravana).

In the use of the katar emerged a form of dagger that could easily perforate the adversary chain mail or sustain the impact of a tiger jump-
(Rainer Daehnhardt).

Thrust in this manner the blade, which generally has a thickened point, can even split open chain mail. The purpose of thickening the point is to pierce and break mail rings.
(E. Jaiwant Paul)

Katars with native blades are often thickened at the point to strengthen them for use against mail.
(Cameron Stone).

Across the world, the human drive for creation has always been accompanied by our almost inherent belligerent tendencies. Conflict is something that has existed in every human culture and society.
A lot can be learned by studying a certain culture's weapons. The characteristics of a civilization's weapons usually reflect its level of complexity. As such, it is no wonder that a culture as that of Ancient India would spawn weapons that match its richness and complexity, if rather unusual looking for the average western observer.
Read on to learn more about three highly exquisite and unusual weapons used in ancient India, up until the modern age.
While the concept of "punch daggers" (knives in which the grip and the grip are perpendicular to eachother) is not unique to India, none of those concepts or design were as widespread and rich as the Indian katar... leaf shaped blade carefully crafted so that the tip of the blade became thicker than the other parts. The reasoning behind this was to not only make the weapon more sturdy, but also make it useful in breaking chain or scale mail armor. In combat, the weapon would be thrust into the mail of an opponent with great force, easily forcing it through mail armor by breaking its links... Medieval katars also sometimes came with leaf or shell shaped handguards or even gauntlets that covered the hand and the forearm for extra protection, although this design fell into disuse later, probably due to the fact that katars would later be reduced to status symbols or ceremonial objects, being only used in duels and demonstrations rather than actual conflict.
The katar would become a status symbol among the upper class of Indian society, often being carried by princes and other noblemen as proof of their status, and not just for personal protection... It is said that some Rajputs (members of patrilineal clans from India and Pakistan) would even hunt tigers using only katars, as proof of their strength and courage
(Guilherme Radaeli).

The katar is also often referred to as a "punch-dagger" because of how it would have been used. The blades are of very high-quality steel, with edges as sharp as a razor, so it could also be used to slash an adversary, but it is most effective in the thrust... Depictions of slightly more heavily armed men would often show them armed with a katar and a sword, suggesting that the katar was also used as a left-hand weapon during sword-fighting. For this the side bar and the sturdy blade would have made the katar a very effective weapon for blocking a sword blow.
(Royal Ontario Museum).

Typically, katars were used in close range hand-to-hand combat, which is effective in armour piercing.
(Shirayan Vajramutthii Yuddha Shastra)

It is known that Ibn Battuta, an Algerian travelling in India in the 14th century, described an attack with a katar ...
(Quoting Eric S)

.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Wow! Of course now we will see indian miniatures (of the appropriate period), confirmative to your words? Or is this another bla-bla-bla?

.

Please behave yourself.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

Personally, I would choose a good high-caliber rifle, just like big game hunters. They were available in 17-18 century India,

I acted differently. I analyzed all the available literature and memories of hunting a tiger before I wrote something. A rifle or spear does not save from a sudden attack, the tiger does not attack in another way. Are you confusing a tiger hunt with a hunt for ... what did you hunt?

Third, African lion hunters manage quite well without katars: they use rather flimsily-looking spears and do just fine .

For the West it is no matter where cultural or historical events of the East take place: in Africa or India or Zombieland. I know.

Both knife and katar sacrifice safe distance for the dubious glory of a heroic kill with high likelihood of being maimed beyond recognition.

I said about this already. For someone it is heroism, for another it is stupidity. For someone it is the history, for another it is politics. For someone it is culture, for another it is barbarism. For someone it is research, for another it is just to talk.

As an aside, Elgood's book on Hindu weapons shows statues with katars piercing some non-tiger looking animals: do I see hooves on some of them? If I am correct, would we call katar " buffalo dagger" or "horse dagger"?

"Would we call..." Indians called.
We called just "zirak boukh", "mel puttah bemoh", "tooth of death god" and other rubbish. Enough already.

I fully understand your excitement: it would have been very nice to pinpoint the original intended purpose of such an unusual weapon. I just find this hypothesis implausible. Sorry

This is normal. Thank you. Just no other hypotheses.
But wait ... Katars were able to penetrate through the chain mail! And they were so good for it that such daggers were independently invented in all countries where there were chain mails! Or not? It is so hard to live in a country in the middle between The West and The East.