Hungarian Hussar sabres and Esterhazy

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2019, 02:50 AM

Excellent example Glen!!! I know a picture is worth a thousand words.... but I always look forward to the detailed info you often post with the images you post.

corrado26 · 18th February 2019, 07:29 AM

.........and here two sabres of my former collection

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2019, 05:40 PM

Absolutely breathtaking Corrado!!!!
Do you have identifications or any info on these?
Obviously they are hussar sabres but any material would be very helpful.

The second sabre has the most interesting 'clipped tip point' which Seifert (1962) often termed a 'pandour point', of course lending to the fascinating character of these Eastern European sabres. The FRINGIA conundrum has often been discussed as to what this strange marking might mean, but as far as I know, never been satisfactorily resolved.

I really do appreciate you and Victrix sharing these great examples and helping put together what I hope will be a thread useful in the study of these sabres.

Victrix · 18th February 2019, 07:02 PM

Jim,

You show another interesting example above from Konopisky and Moudry. This is the typical Hungarian ”Madonna” sabre which tended to be decorated with a string of pearls (”Perlenreihe”) along the knuckle guard. The battle flags of the hussars often had a picture of Virgin Mary and it’s not impossible that the pearl line on the sabre guard could represent the beads on a rosary. See another picture below from Ungarischer Säbel und Husaren-Pallasch (2010). I have a cruder version of this sabre without the pearl decoration. This makes me wonder if these more decorated sabres are not for parade use (”prunksäbel”). The Serbo-Croat specimen is almost comically impractical for fencing, and the sword posted by Hotspur falls in the same category. I was thinking that the knobbly guard might be useful as a knuckleduster in a melé but Hotspur’s sabre has the knobbly bits on the inside of the guard (imagine what that would do to your knuckles!).

Kind regards,

LEGIO VI VICTRIX

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2019, 07:14 PM

[QUOTE=Victrix]Jim,

You show another interesting example above from Konopisky and Moudry. This is the typical Hungarian ”Madonna” sabre which tended to be decorated with a string of pearls (”Perlenreihe”) along the knuckle guard. The battle flags of the hussars often had a picture of Virgin Mary and it’s not impossible that the pearl line on the sabre guard could represent the beads on a rosary. See another picture below from Ungarischer Säbel und Husaren-Pallasch (2010). I have a cruder version of this sabre without the pearl decoration. This makes me wonder if these more decorated sabres are not for parade use (”prunksäbel”). The Serbo-Croat specimen is almost comically impractical for fencing, and the sword posted by Hotspur falls in the same category. I was thinking that the knobbly guard might be useful as a knuckleduster in a melé but Hotspur’s sabre has the knobbly bits on the inside of the guard (imagine what that would do to your knuckles!).

Kind regards,

Now theres some GREAT thinking!!! and your are right...........Austro-Hungary WAS the Holy Roman Empire.......and well noted on the Catholic religious icons on the blades..........A ROSARY!!! Why not?

For many years blades carried formations of dots impressed which were believed to represent 'Paternosters' in the same fashion. I had not thought of that, and it is a compelling suggestion that 'pearls' may represent these beads.

Good observation on the knuckleduster idea as well, and while these fist bolstering features are known on daggers, not so much swords....but still an intriguing notion. Right.......inside the hilt.....bad.

Hotspur · 23rd February 2019, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent example Glen!!! I know a picture is worth a thousand words.... but I always look forward to the detailed info you often post with the images you post.

I'm afraid I don't have much information to share, aside that similar stringed pearl like hilts appear as late as the 1820s-1830s. I still disagree wholly regarding the intent and meaning of five or seven ball hilts aside from one upmanship and style. The two I posted to the thread just a nod to balls in general but the string of pearls term now added to the pencil box along with pie crusted

As we all still learn, what I have seen in this thread confirms my thoughts on a sabre posted elsewhere. Hungarian vs French market but done in a French style.

I am reminded of longevity of styles with the Italian swords of the mid 19th century.

Cheers

GC erstwhile forumite

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2019, 06:26 AM

Thanks very much Glen for this additional insight, and notes on the five and seven ball hilts. I suspect you are right in that there were cross influences between Hungarian and French hussar sabres as we have found there were branches of the Esterhazy 'house' in France.
As always the 'plot' thickens!

Victrix · 24th February 2019, 12:08 PM

I’m not sure the decorations on the swords posted by Glen are intended to be the same variety as on Austro-Hungarian sabres from the 18thC. The balls (are they said to be ”pearls” in this context?) are combined with what appears to be some sort of foliage. This foliage may well represent a laurel of bay leaves which in Greek mythology is a sign of victory (Apollo), and in Roman days a sign of position. Napoleon wore a laurel wreath crown of gold when he was crowned ”Empereur”. In ancient Rome great scholars were also awarded laurel wreaths and the words ”baccalaureate” and ”bachelor” are apparently derived from the word baccalaureus, or laurel berry. Are the balls decorating Gen’s swords in fact laurel berries or olives, and are these also decorating Austro-Hungarian sabres from the 18thC?

The area of Hungary West of River Danube was a Roman province called Pannonia. Even today one can trace Roman symbolism in Hungarian culture. Some of this was sometimes clearly expressed during the period of neo-classisism in Hungarian arms in the 19thC. But given the different time periods and lack of foliage I think the decorations may show different objects.

18th February 2019, 07:29 AM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	.........and here two sabres of my former collection Attached Images

18th February 2019, 07:02 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Jim, You show another interesting example above from Konopisky and Moudry. This is the typical Hungarian ”Madonna” sabre which tended to be decorated with a string of pearls (”Perlenreihe”) along the knuckle guard. The battle flags of the hussars often had a picture of Virgin Mary and it’s not impossible that the pearl line on the sabre guard could represent the beads on a rosary. See another picture below from Ungarischer Säbel und Husaren-Pallasch (2010). I have a cruder version of this sabre without the pearl decoration. This makes me wonder if these more decorated sabres are not for parade use (”prunksäbel”). The Serbo-Croat specimen is almost comically impractical for fencing, and the sword posted by Hotspur falls in the same category. I was thinking that the knobbly guard might be useful as a knuckleduster in a melé but Hotspur’s sabre has the knobbly bits on the inside of the guard (imagine what that would do to your knuckles!). Kind regards, LEGIO VI VICTRIX Attached Images

24th February 2019, 12:08 PM	#8
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	I’m not sure the decorations on the swords posted by Glen are intended to be the same variety as on Austro-Hungarian sabres from the 18thC. The balls (are they said to be ”pearls” in this context?) are combined with what appears to be some sort of foliage. This foliage may well represent a laurel of bay leaves which in Greek mythology is a sign of victory (Apollo), and in Roman days a sign of position. Napoleon wore a laurel wreath crown of gold when he was crowned ”Empereur”. In ancient Rome great scholars were also awarded laurel wreaths and the words ”baccalaureate” and ”bachelor” are apparently derived from the word baccalaureus, or laurel berry. Are the balls decorating Gen’s swords in fact laurel berries or olives, and are these also decorating Austro-Hungarian sabres from the 18thC? The area of Hungary West of River Danube was a Roman province called Pannonia. Even today one can trace Roman symbolism in Hungarian culture. Some of this was sometimes clearly expressed during the period of neo-classisism in Hungarian arms in the 19thC. But given the different time periods and lack of foliage I think the decorations may show different objects. Attached Images

18th February 2019, 02:50 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Excellent example Glen!!! I know a picture is worth a thousand words.... but I always look forward to the detailed info you often post with the images you post.

18th February 2019, 05:40 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Absolutely breathtaking Corrado!!!! Do you have identifications or any info on these? Obviously they are hussar sabres but any material would be very helpful. The second sabre has the most interesting 'clipped tip point' which Seifert (1962) often termed a 'pandour point', of course lending to the fascinating character of these Eastern European sabres. The FRINGIA conundrum has often been discussed as to what this strange marking might mean, but as far as I know, never been satisfactorily resolved. I really do appreciate you and Victrix sharing these great examples and helping put together what I hope will be a thread useful in the study of these sabres.

18th February 2019, 07:14 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	[QUOTE=Victrix]Jim, You show another interesting example above from Konopisky and Moudry. This is the typical Hungarian ”Madonna” sabre which tended to be decorated with a string of pearls (”Perlenreihe”) along the knuckle guard. The battle flags of the hussars often had a picture of Virgin Mary and it’s not impossible that the pearl line on the sabre guard could represent the beads on a rosary. See another picture below from Ungarischer Säbel und Husaren-Pallasch (2010). I have a cruder version of this sabre without the pearl decoration. This makes me wonder if these more decorated sabres are not for parade use (”prunksäbel”). The Serbo-Croat specimen is almost comically impractical for fencing, and the sword posted by Hotspur falls in the same category. I was thinking that the knobbly guard might be useful as a knuckleduster in a melé but Hotspur’s sabre has the knobbly bits on the inside of the guard (imagine what that would do to your knuckles!). Kind regards, Now theres some GREAT thinking!!! and your are right...........Austro-Hungary WAS the Holy Roman Empire.......and well noted on the Catholic religious icons on the blades..........A ROSARY!!! Why not? For many years blades carried formations of dots impressed which were believed to represent 'Paternosters' in the same fashion. I had not thought of that, and it is a compelling suggestion that 'pearls' may represent these beads. Good observation on the knuckleduster idea as well, and while these fist bolstering features are known on daggers, not so much swords....but still an intriguing notion. Right.......inside the hilt.....bad.

24th February 2019, 06:26 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks very much Glen for this additional insight, and notes on the five and seven ball hilts. I suspect you are right in that there were cross influences between Hungarian and French hussar sabres as we have found there were branches of the Esterhazy 'house' in France. As always the 'plot' thickens!