Hungarian Hussar sabres and Esterhazy

Jim McDougall · 16th February 2019, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Jim,

I believe it’s not entirely clear that sabres with pearl string decorations on the knuckle guard are officers’ versions from the Esterhazy Hungarian hussars. The illustration in Wagner was done from Dolloczek (see picture below) and does not claim that the pearl string decoration necessarily is connected specifically with Esterhazy. There are plenty sabres belonging to officers of the Esterhazy hussars without this decoration and there are plenty sabres with the decoration which are not connected with Esterhazy. It can’t be ruled out that this was a fashion which started at the Esterhazy hussars and was copied.

The sabre characteristics you describe do seem French as you suggest. There were many Hungarian emigrés in France who served as hussards. Some were political refugees after the failed War of Independence by Prince Rakoczi 1703-11 and ended up in the service of French king Louis XIV. Ladislas Valentin Esterhazy was born in France and served with the Bercheny hussards before raising his own regiment in 1764. These Hungarian hussards in French service obviously used equipment similar to what they used in their native country. There may have been French hussard sabres with pearl lined guards but I never saw one.

There were also Esterhazy Hungarian infantry regiments like Nikolaus or Joseph Esterhazy at this time. Infantry sabres did not have flat pommels and did have elliptical shaped langets as you described. I attach a photo of an Austro-Hungarian infantry Prima Plana sabre with pearl line knuckle guard decoration which I saw in the Imperial Armoury in Prague (don’t know if any Esterhazy connection).

Victrix, thank you so much for this well presented insight, and I had overlooked the profoundly well informed posts of both you and Corrado on these East European sabres in previous threads.

You are exactly right of course on the Wagner example of the Esterhazy sabre, as while it was taken from the Dolleczek reference and captioned as from the Esterhazy regiment , as you say we cannot presume that the pearl string decoration was specific to the unit. Even though we know that certainly one example (as cited) had the decoration, it seems clear that officers, who typically commissioned and obtained their own swords, would often have varying decorative elements on them.

Another thing you well clarify here is that not only were there considerable numbers of Hungarians in France, as well as of course members of royal stature and high station of these families, but they were often involved in these hussar regiments there. I did not know of the Esterhazy units in France .

I am most grateful for your this historical synopsis which truly gives the perspective in better understanding the cross influences in these sword hilts of Austro-Hungary and France in these hussar regiments.

The look into the infantry versions of these sabres is also most interesting as it seems sabres are typically regarded as a cavalry weapon, and we often forget that these officers also carried them. Great example you show of the Prima-Plana sabre withe the pearl string line!

Thank you again very much

Best regards
Jim

Victrix · 16th February 2019, 05:37 PM

Jim,

I wanted to post another picture of a somewhat later Hungarian hussar sabre from around 1780 on which blade it’s engraved ”Vivat Fúrst Eszerházy.” Although breathtakingly beautiful, this sabre is not decorated with a pearl line along the knuckleguard.

On the other hand, this pearl line decoration does appear on the Hungaro/Serbo/Croat sabre from around 1750 which blade is engraved with letters of Old Slavonic. Its blade is no less than 5.8cm wide (!).

Finally, on Hungarian emigrés serving abroad, they played a part in forming most countries’ new hussar forces. They even crossed the Atlantic to the U.S. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mich...ts_de_Fabriczy.

All the best,

Victrix

Jim McDougall · 17th February 2019, 04:12 PM

Victrix thank you again for these great examples and insight!
That Serb-Croatian example is pretty awesome............what a blade!

Good notes on the Hungarians being the driving force in the hussar phenomenon which set the pace for flamboyance in light cavalry throughout Europe. I think studying the pageantry of these units is some of the most colorful and intriguing in military history, and the elements of these sabres are key in much of it.

I know that Wagner made occasional reference to the hilt fashioning in many cases being done by Gypsy artisans, and I tried to find information on some of the symbolic or baroque motifs and styling. It seems that there was more to find on blade markings in these aspects than in the artistry of hilt motifs. It may be that perhaps there were indeed more aesthetic considerations in choices in hilt decoration.

The pearl string effect reminds me in some degree of the so called five ball hilt on English spadroons of the 1780s to early 1800s. These had it seems invariably a group of five balls on a raised line on the counterguard and often incorporated into the knuckleguard. I wanted to discover more on what the possible significance of these beads/balls could be.
While I thought perhaps they represented the number 5, in some cases there were up to 7.
In the same manner, I wondered on the string of pearl theme, but after most review only subjective theorizing could present ideas, and the aesthetic explanation the most reasonable conclusion.

Even aesthetically, it is fascinating to see the pearled or beaded motif theme as its influence traveled through the hussar units and even into others.

Hotspur · 17th February 2019, 11:46 PM

))))))))))))

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2019, 02:50 AM

Excellent example Glen!!! I know a picture is worth a thousand words.... but I always look forward to the detailed info you often post with the images you post.

corrado26 · 18th February 2019, 07:29 AM

.........and here two sabres of my former collection

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2019, 05:40 PM

Absolutely breathtaking Corrado!!!!
Do you have identifications or any info on these?
Obviously they are hussar sabres but any material would be very helpful.

The second sabre has the most interesting 'clipped tip point' which Seifert (1962) often termed a 'pandour point', of course lending to the fascinating character of these Eastern European sabres. The FRINGIA conundrum has often been discussed as to what this strange marking might mean, but as far as I know, never been satisfactorily resolved.

I really do appreciate you and Victrix sharing these great examples and helping put together what I hope will be a thread useful in the study of these sabres.

Hotspur · 23rd February 2019, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent example Glen!!! I know a picture is worth a thousand words.... but I always look forward to the detailed info you often post with the images you post.

I'm afraid I don't have much information to share, aside that similar stringed pearl like hilts appear as late as the 1820s-1830s. I still disagree wholly regarding the intent and meaning of five or seven ball hilts aside from one upmanship and style. The two I posted to the thread just a nod to balls in general but the string of pearls term now added to the pencil box along with pie crusted

As we all still learn, what I have seen in this thread confirms my thoughts on a sabre posted elsewhere. Hungarian vs French market but done in a French style.

I am reminded of longevity of styles with the Italian swords of the mid 19th century.

Cheers

GC erstwhile forumite

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2019, 06:26 AM

Thanks very much Glen for this additional insight, and notes on the five and seven ball hilts. I suspect you are right in that there were cross influences between Hungarian and French hussar sabres as we have found there were branches of the Esterhazy 'house' in France.
As always the 'plot' thickens!

16th February 2019, 05:37 PM	#2
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Jim, I wanted to post another picture of a somewhat later Hungarian hussar sabre from around 1780 on which blade it’s engraved ”Vivat Fúrst Eszerházy.” Although breathtakingly beautiful, this sabre is not decorated with a pearl line along the knuckleguard. On the other hand, this pearl line decoration does appear on the Hungaro/Serbo/Croat sabre from around 1750 which blade is engraved with letters of Old Slavonic. Its blade is no less than 5.8cm wide (!). Finally, on Hungarian emigrés serving abroad, they played a part in forming most countries’ new hussar forces. They even crossed the Atlantic to the U.S. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mich...ts_de_Fabriczy. All the best, Victrix Attached Images

17th February 2019, 11:46 PM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	)))))))))))) Attached Images

18th February 2019, 07:29 AM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	.........and here two sabres of my former collection Attached Images

17th February 2019, 04:12 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Victrix thank you again for these great examples and insight! That Serb-Croatian example is pretty awesome............what a blade! Good notes on the Hungarians being the driving force in the hussar phenomenon which set the pace for flamboyance in light cavalry throughout Europe. I think studying the pageantry of these units is some of the most colorful and intriguing in military history, and the elements of these sabres are key in much of it. I know that Wagner made occasional reference to the hilt fashioning in many cases being done by Gypsy artisans, and I tried to find information on some of the symbolic or baroque motifs and styling. It seems that there was more to find on blade markings in these aspects than in the artistry of hilt motifs. It may be that perhaps there were indeed more aesthetic considerations in choices in hilt decoration. The pearl string effect reminds me in some degree of the so called five ball hilt on English spadroons of the 1780s to early 1800s. These had it seems invariably a group of five balls on a raised line on the counterguard and often incorporated into the knuckleguard. I wanted to discover more on what the possible significance of these beads/balls could be. While I thought perhaps they represented the number 5, in some cases there were up to 7. In the same manner, I wondered on the string of pearl theme, but after most review only subjective theorizing could present ideas, and the aesthetic explanation the most reasonable conclusion. Even aesthetically, it is fascinating to see the pearled or beaded motif theme as its influence traveled through the hussar units and even into others.

18th February 2019, 02:50 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Excellent example Glen!!! I know a picture is worth a thousand words.... but I always look forward to the detailed info you often post with the images you post.

18th February 2019, 05:40 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Absolutely breathtaking Corrado!!!! Do you have identifications or any info on these? Obviously they are hussar sabres but any material would be very helpful. The second sabre has the most interesting 'clipped tip point' which Seifert (1962) often termed a 'pandour point', of course lending to the fascinating character of these Eastern European sabres. The FRINGIA conundrum has often been discussed as to what this strange marking might mean, but as far as I know, never been satisfactorily resolved. I really do appreciate you and Victrix sharing these great examples and helping put together what I hope will be a thread useful in the study of these sabres.

24th February 2019, 06:26 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks very much Glen for this additional insight, and notes on the five and seven ball hilts. I suspect you are right in that there were cross influences between Hungarian and French hussar sabres as we have found there were branches of the Esterhazy 'house' in France. As always the 'plot' thickens!