Ambon Keris for interest

[Larks]

A few more photos - it has cleaned up quite nicely and with interesting rose tint to the blade and I’m wondering if anyone can educate me on the chemistry of the steel composition used for keris forging. I am very interested in blacksmithing but am ignorant of what the makeup of these blades might be and what would influence the colour - i.e. might it have a bit of copper in the mix or would a high phosphorous content possibly contribute to the tint?

(Please excuse me while I fight with a slow connection and correct my photo loading )

[David]

Sorry to be so long away from this discussion. I mostly agree with what Kai has posted, though i am more with Detlef on the material of the hilt. Seem more likely Sperm whale than hippo.
On the topic of ivory, Kai touched on this, but i can't state more strongly that in trying to remove the hilt, which i agree is worth attempting, it is the ivory hilt that is more likely to break before the tang will, so do work slowly and carefully. No matter how nice it would be to remove this hilt it is not worth cracking or breaking it.
And when i first looked at your photos it was on my cellphone. After seeing the images larger i would agree with Kai that Sulawesi is a more likely origin.
Speaking of images you last ones did not seem to post. Please try again.

[Larks]

And some different views of the grip

[Rick]

Those dotted lines on the handle; Hippo tooth?

[kai]

Originally Posted by Rick

Those dotted lines on the handle; Hippo tooth?

Yup!

And I beat Mr. Hippo Ivory to it...

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

Yup!

And I beat Mr. Hippo Ivory to it...

Regards,
Kai

[Larks]

Originally Posted by kai

Yup!

And I beat Mr. Hippo Ivory to it...

Regards,
Kai

So is this a good thing? In so far as is Hippo Ivory any more or less desirable in a Keris hilt (or any collectable item for that matter) than elephant tusk or whale tooth ivory? And how would it have found its way to the region?

[kai]

Hello Greg,

So is this a good thing? In so far as is Hippo Ivory any more or less desirable in a Keris hilt (or any collectable item for that matter) than elephant tusk or whale tooth ivory? And how would it have found its way to the region?

Not really much of any difference, IMHO - quality of carving and condition being much more important nowadays.

In the Malay world, hippo has a reputation for staying white longer than the other ivories. It also is a tiny bit harder material, on average.

It's certainly the Arab merchants whose network connected Africa with Asia. We also see walrus and extinct mammoth ivory being utilized throughout Asia - maritime (as well as overland) trade has been the main player in connecting cultures for millennia...

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Larks

So is this a good thing?

Hello Greg,

The good thing by this is that when you want to sell it one day that there are no CITES prohibition on it by international trade!

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

Yup!

And I beat Mr. Hippo Ivory to it...

Regards,
Kai

Yep! New photos reveal new information. Good original call on that one Kai. Though i suspect you were just plan lucky this time. LOL!

[kai]

Good original call on that one Kai. Though i suspect you were just plan lucky this time. LOL!

Have a close look at the close-up in post #1...

I wasn't positive though.

Regards,.
Kai

[kai]

i can't state more strongly that in trying to remove the hilt, which i agree is worth attempting, it is the ivory hilt that is more likely to break before the tang will, so do work slowly and carefully. No matter how nice it would be to remove this hilt it is not worth cracking or breaking it.

I agree with David here. Since the blade appears to be pretty old (easily 19th c., maybe older) the tang may also be on the fragile side of things. Thus, it is important to move ahead gently. It really can take weeks or months to get a really stubborn hilt moving.

However, I'd suggest to really keep trying to remove the hilt and clean the tang (pesi): There certainly is rust on the tang, too; and the vinegar treatment almost certainly brought moisture (at least humidity and vinegar vapour) into the base of the hilt which will increase the risk of faster rusting.

Regards,
Kai

[Larks]

Originally Posted by kai

I agree with David here. Since the blade appears to be pretty old (easily 19th c., maybe older) the tang may also be on the fragile side of things. Thus, it is important to move ahead gently. It really can take weeks or months to get a really stubborn hilt moving.

However, I'd suggest to really keep trying to remove the hilt and clean the tang (pesi): There certainly is rust on the tang, too; and the vinegar treatment almost certainly brought moisture (at least humidity and vinegar vapour) into the base of the hilt which will increase the risk of faster rusting.

Regards,
Kai

Understood Kai and I agree that the tang is likely to be quite heavily rusted. I’ll try again over the weekend but I agree how fragile the tang is likely to be, given the state of the blade before cleaning, so I am very wary of breaking it.

[kai]

Hello Greg,

A few more photos - it has cleaned up quite nicely and with interesting rose tint to the blade and I’m wondering if anyone can educate me on the chemistry of the steel composition used for keris forging. I am very interested in blacksmithing but am ignorant of what the makeup of these blades might be and what would influence the colour - i.e. might it have a bit of copper in the mix or would a high phosphorous content possibly contribute to the tint?

The iron sources (as well as iron ore origins) utilized in keris production are extremely diverse and often get traded from quite distant regions. There usually is a central layer of steel (resulting in an edge that can be hardened) which gets sandwiched between layers of very mild pamor steel (often laminated from 2 or more different irons which may show contrast upon etching).

I suspect that the rose color tinge originates from the copper leached from the selut. After disassembling, another short "wash" with vinegar will probably yield more neutral colors (it may be preferable to rub the blade with lemon or lime first)...

Regards,
Kai