Talismanic Devices and Imbuements on Islamic Arms

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th February 2019, 12:23 AM

AND I have to include Omani influenced weapons...with dots on blades.

Victrix · 11th February 2019, 09:58 AM

We discussed four dots marks on swords in an earlier thread. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=dots . The question whether they could be forge or foundry identification marks, or have religious or superstitious/talismanic functions. If I understand this thread correctly, the three dots seems to be a fairly universal talismanic symbol offering ”protection” and the four dots could be a stronger 360˚ version offering ”protection” viewed from all directions.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th February 2019, 06:24 PM

Great point !! Yes agreed and above you see the three khanjar blades with the centre blade protected in all directions and both sides of the blade left and right as well as on the reverse; thus stopping evil from entering blade or hilt...In fact hilts sometimes carry the dots separately as well.. extra empowerment seems to be attached when the dots are in gold or brass/copper material..and it seems Islamic script itself a Talisman sometimes gets the three or four dot treatment. (the 5 dot is in fact unrelated as it stands alone as another Talisman altogether and representative of the five fingers or hand of Fatima often linked to the evil eye protective motif..In fact the saying goes "Heres five in your eye" when that Talisman is illustrated) as below.

As seen on this thread other objects get a similar treatment and I wondered if the transition to moons came as a result of this Talisman although so far as I can deduce moons as such were reserved for blades?

Kubur · 11th February 2019, 07:04 PM

Gentlemens at this stage of the discussion
I would like to share with you one of the most important fact:
a line is made of two points.

Victrix · 11th February 2019, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Gentlemens at this stage of the discussion
I would like to share with you one of the most important fact:
a line is made of two points.

Are you saying we are getting a bit ”dotty” here??

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th February 2019, 10:29 PM

I hesitate to add that we are also going around in circles !!

The question of dots is hardly touched here but the general Talisman focuss I think is well being advanced>> The mathematical wizardry involved in astrology we have hardly noted yet it is vast and pulls in all the mysterious Talisman and magical wonders described by my illustration of the Swordsman built from a star chart in Persia in the early11thC.

Shown below;from the Suwar al-kawakib al-thabita of al-Sufi dated1009-10

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th February 2019, 10:58 PM

For a final thrust from the side of proof and discussion looking from the Ottoman advantage I offer the book of Iznic Patterns from more than 10 of the worlds finest museums and 650 plus diagrams and pictures where the chinthimani/ cintimanii gets two full pages dedicated to patterns of Iznic ceramics. The period is known as RHODEAN and covers the early 17th C in artisan production there.

Jim McDougall · 15th February 2019, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Are you saying we are getting a bit ”dotty” here??

Good quip Victrix!

Indeed 'connecting the dots' can be a bit maddening as we try to make sense out of these conundrums, and as Ibrahiim has noted.....we can often seem to be going in circles ......but these discussions can systematically map out the situations and circustances for better investigation.

The knowledge base and diversity of the membership here is phenomenal, and there is no better place to bring these things into the light.

We all share in the adventure.......and 'the games afoot!!'.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th February 2019, 11:38 AM

Thank you Jim for balancing the thread so far. I was reading about Tipu Sultan (The Tiger of Mysore) and noted Talisman devices on the famous cannon also decorated in Tigers …from http://www.mia.org.qa/en/tigers-dream/tipu-cannon

Quote"
The triumphant lion of God.

Like many other objects in this exhibition, this cannon is laden with tigers and inscriptions. The tiger motif is most forcefully expressed by the snarling tiger heads at the muzzle (front), trunnions (on the sides) and cascabel (back) of the gun barrel. Within a pair of tiger stripes on the barrel, an inscription calls on the ‘triumphant lion of God’, a phrase found regularly in calligraphic designs of this period. This inscription also provides the place and date of manufacture, while the presence of the heart-shaped ‘Haydar’ talisman shows that the cannon was cast at the sultan’s foundry".Unquote.

Norman McCormick · 21st February 2019, 07:58 PM

Hi,
The Shellenbaum of the German Army, the Chapeau Chinois of the Legion Etrangere etc., would appear to be another incarnation of this form of standard.
Regards,
Norman.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd February 2019, 08:58 AM

Talisman in a Fort!! FORT JABRIN OMAN BUILT FOR THE THIRD DYNASTY YARUBA IN ABOUT 1680. THE MAGIC EYE. A MASSIVE TALISMAN COVERING THE ENTIRE CEILING

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd February 2019, 10:26 AM

A quick note on the 3 dot form...and its relative shapes and beliefs.

Reference;
A. NACI ERENs BOOK TURKISH HANDMADE CARPETS PAGE 52.

Notes on the subject of Talisman in rugs and carpets; a popular design using a triangle (and this is very common in Afghanistan) Quote." Another design which was used as much as the Rams Horn was the Muska (Talisman). It is triangular in shape and it must have descended from the triple belief which represented the three gods SKY SUN FIRE of the ancient Turks. In due course it came to represent the three powers of the new religion Islam Creation/ Letting Survive/ Taking away Life One expert indicated that the use of a Talisman together with the triple belief suggests that the Turks in accepting the religion also opened its doors adapting to the full structure of Islamic Talisman and beliefs". Unquote.

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2019, 08:36 AM

Ibrahiim
Thank you so much for the intriguing example of the 'eye' applied to an entire ceiling! While we are familiar with this device being used on weapons and in other material culture talismanically, it is remarkable to see it in such large scale as in architecture. WHAT AN AMAZING EXAMPLE!

Also thank you for the keen insight into the triangle which of course comprises the three dot configuration and its associated symbolisms in geometric form. In Afghanistan as you note it is well known in textiles in a talismanic sense as described by Sheila Payne ("The Afghan Amulet" 1994).
This is a fascinating account of this use of a symbolic device in this manner.

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2019, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
The Shellenbaum of the German Army, the Chapeau Chinois of the Legion Etrangere etc., would appear to be another incarnation of this form of standard.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman, EXCELLENT EXAMPLE!!! This would seem the Germanic tribes interpretation of these kinds of standards probably from the Migration Period and thereby from even Roman origins, It seems these were often in the manner if windsocks , temptingly suggesting wind direction for loosing of arrows in addition to the formation centering use.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th February 2019, 01:35 PM

AN important Islamic Talisman is the Zulfiqar forked blade configuration often seen on battle banners ~From might and magic
From the Metropolitan Museum. SEE https://www.metmuseum.org/blogs/rumi...arms-and-armor

Quote."What becomes immediately clear in this exhibition is how some motifs designed to avert evil were ubiquitous throughout the Islamic world. For example, each of the exhibition's three geographic sections—Iran, Turkey, and India and Southeast Asia—references Dhu'l Fiqar, a bifurcated sword imbued with miraculous powers that the Prophet Muhammad gave 'Ali, his cousin and son-in-law, in 625 A.D. during the Battle of Uhud. Dhu'l Fiqar prominently adorns a large Ottoman sançak (banner), which is also emblazoned with inscriptions that point to its likely use in a military context."Unquote>

Below; Banner, dated A.H. 1235/A.D. 1819–20. Turkey, probably Istanbul. Islamic. Silk, metal-wrapped thread; lampas, brocaded; H. 115 3/4 in. (294 cm), W. 85 1/2 in. (217.2 cm). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Fletcher Fund, 1976 (1976.312)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th February 2019, 01:59 PM

As a link to many Talisman in the Islamic World please see

https://metmuseum.org/toah/hd/tali/hd_tali.htm

I think it helps put our work on this thread into perspective...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th March 2019, 04:38 PM

;

Jim McDougall · 4th March 2019, 06:11 PM

Good suggestion!!! The use of floral and vegetal motif can often have talismanic symbolism in many cases, while other are toward dynastic leitmotif or any number of such applications.
I know that Jens has pursued this line of investigation for more years than I can even say, and has brought up important uses in decorative themes many times.
I think one of the most significant has been the use of the poppy, and that may be the best starting points.

11th February 2019, 12:23 AM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	AND I have to include Omani influenced weapons...with dots on blades. Attached Images

11th February 2019, 09:58 AM	#2
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 685	We discussed four dots marks on swords in an earlier thread. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=dots . The question whether they could be forge or foundry identification marks, or have religious or superstitious/talismanic functions. If I understand this thread correctly, the three dots seems to be a fairly universal talismanic symbol offering ”protection” and the four dots could be a stronger 360˚ version offering ”protection” viewed from all directions. Attached Images Last edited by Victrix; 11th February 2019 at 10:46 AM.

11th February 2019, 06:24 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Great point !! Yes agreed and above you see the three khanjar blades with the centre blade protected in all directions and both sides of the blade left and right as well as on the reverse; thus stopping evil from entering blade or hilt...In fact hilts sometimes carry the dots separately as well.. extra empowerment seems to be attached when the dots are in gold or brass/copper material..and it seems Islamic script itself a Talisman sometimes gets the three or four dot treatment. (the 5 dot is in fact unrelated as it stands alone as another Talisman altogether and representative of the five fingers or hand of Fatima often linked to the evil eye protective motif..In fact the saying goes "Heres five in your eye" when that Talisman is illustrated) as below. As seen on this thread other objects get a similar treatment and I wondered if the transition to moons came as a result of this Talisman although so far as I can deduce moons as such were reserved for blades? Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th February 2019 at 06:48 PM.

13th February 2019, 10:29 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I hesitate to add that we are also going around in circles !! The question of dots is hardly touched here but the general Talisman focuss I think is well being advanced>> The mathematical wizardry involved in astrology we have hardly noted yet it is vast and pulls in all the mysterious Talisman and magical wonders described by my illustration of the Swordsman built from a star chart in Persia in the early11thC. Shown below;from the Suwar al-kawakib al-thabita of al-Sufi dated1009-10 Attached Images

16th February 2019, 11:38 AM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Thank you Jim for balancing the thread so far. I was reading about Tipu Sultan (The Tiger of Mysore) and noted Talisman devices on the famous cannon also decorated in Tigers …from http://www.mia.org.qa/en/tigers-dream/tipu-cannon Quote" The triumphant lion of God. Like many other objects in this exhibition, this cannon is laden with tigers and inscriptions. The tiger motif is most forcefully expressed by the snarling tiger heads at the muzzle (front), trunnions (on the sides) and cascabel (back) of the gun barrel. Within a pair of tiger stripes on the barrel, an inscription calls on the ‘triumphant lion of God’, a phrase found regularly in calligraphic designs of this period. This inscription also provides the place and date of manufacture, while the presence of the heart-shaped ‘Haydar’ talisman shows that the cannon was cast at the sultan’s foundry".Unquote. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 16th February 2019 at 11:50 AM.

11th February 2019, 07:04 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Gentlemens at this stage of the discussion I would like to share with you one of the most important fact: a line is made of two points.

13th February 2019, 10:58 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	For a final thrust from the side of proof and discussion looking from the Ottoman advantage I offer the book of Iznic Patterns from more than 10 of the worlds finest museums and 650 plus diagrams and pictures where the chinthimani/ cintimanii gets two full pages dedicated to patterns of Iznic ceramics. The period is known as RHODEAN and covers the early 17th C in artisan production there.

21st February 2019, 07:58 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Hi, The Shellenbaum of the German Army, the Chapeau Chinois of the Legion Etrangere etc., would appear to be another incarnation of this form of standard. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

22nd February 2019, 08:58 AM	#11
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Talisman in a Fort!! FORT JABRIN OMAN BUILT FOR THE THIRD DYNASTY YARUBA IN ABOUT 1680. THE MAGIC EYE. A MASSIVE TALISMAN COVERING THE ENTIRE CEILING Attached Images

23rd February 2019, 10:26 AM	#12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	A quick note on the 3 dot form...and its relative shapes and beliefs. Reference; A. NACI ERENs BOOK TURKISH HANDMADE CARPETS PAGE 52. Notes on the subject of Talisman in rugs and carpets; a popular design using a triangle (and this is very common in Afghanistan) Quote." Another design which was used as much as the Rams Horn was the Muska (Talisman). It is triangular in shape and it must have descended from the triple belief which represented the three gods SKY SUN FIRE of the ancient Turks. In due course it came to represent the three powers of the new religion Islam Creation/ Letting Survive/ Taking away Life One expert indicated that the use of a Talisman together with the triple belief suggests that the Turks in accepting the religion also opened its doors adapting to the full structure of Islamic Talisman and beliefs". Unquote. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 23rd February 2019 at 10:40 AM.

24th February 2019, 08:36 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Ibrahiim Thank you so much for the intriguing example of the 'eye' applied to an entire ceiling! While we are familiar with this device being used on weapons and in other material culture talismanically, it is remarkable to see it in such large scale as in architecture. WHAT AN AMAZING EXAMPLE! Also thank you for the keen insight into the triangle which of course comprises the three dot configuration and its associated symbolisms in geometric form. In Afghanistan as you note it is well known in textiles in a talismanic sense as described by Sheila Payne ("The Afghan Amulet" 1994). This is a fascinating account of this use of a symbolic device in this manner.

26th February 2019, 01:35 PM	#15
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	AN important Islamic Talisman is the Zulfiqar forked blade configuration often seen on battle banners ~From might and magic From the Metropolitan Museum. SEE https://www.metmuseum.org/blogs/rumi...arms-and-armor Quote."What becomes immediately clear in this exhibition is how some motifs designed to avert evil were ubiquitous throughout the Islamic world. For example, each of the exhibition's three geographic sections—Iran, Turkey, and India and Southeast Asia—references Dhu'l Fiqar, a bifurcated sword imbued with miraculous powers that the Prophet Muhammad gave 'Ali, his cousin and son-in-law, in 625 A.D. during the Battle of Uhud. Dhu'l Fiqar prominently adorns a large Ottoman sançak (banner), which is also emblazoned with inscriptions that point to its likely use in a military context."Unquote> Below; Banner, dated A.H. 1235/A.D. 1819–20. Turkey, probably Istanbul. Islamic. Silk, metal-wrapped thread; lampas, brocaded; H. 115 3/4 in. (294 cm), W. 85 1/2 in. (217.2 cm). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Fletcher Fund, 1976 (1976.312) Attached Images

26th February 2019, 01:59 PM	#16
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	As a link to many Talisman in the Islamic World please see https://metmuseum.org/toah/hd/tali/hd_tali.htm I think it helps put our work on this thread into perspective...

4th March 2019, 04:38 PM	#17
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	; Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 5th March 2019 at 02:19 PM.

4th March 2019, 06:11 PM	#18
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Good suggestion!!! The use of floral and vegetal motif can often have talismanic symbolism in many cases, while other are toward dynastic leitmotif or any number of such applications. I know that Jens has pursued this line of investigation for more years than I can even say, and has brought up important uses in decorative themes many times. I think one of the most significant has been the use of the poppy, and that may be the best starting points.