Looking vintage and antique samples of Talibong of Panay Island

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by David

I posted a WWII era tenegre sometime back that is possibly from Panay. This would be vintage, not antique of course, though it won't be long before it reached that status.
Probably made for a WWII vet as a souvenir, but it has a thck, sharp and nasty blade on it.
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...hlight=Tenegre

Another great Talibong with a Kinampit blade profile!

Btw don't be confused when I call it Talibong (as it's a general term for a fighting blade); Tenegre is also a valid term that connotes the blade came from lowlanders. I read there that you were wondering why the sword was dressed up, here's the explanation as recounted by the collector who I bought mine from:

"This is supposedly kept in the house and is only worn during fiestas and other occasions. The owner would wear a white polo shirt and tie the blade behind his back. It is not unusual for them to get into fights when they are inebriated. Most fights were slashing type of movements since apparently they did not want to kill each other. This went on till the late 80s because it was only the local government who maintained peace and order in remote areas. The Philippine Constabulary did not reach many barrios during those days."

Another friend who was very familiar with the ways of the different tribes and locals in the area remarked that it was usually a very fatal warning sign if the owner of a talibong moved his sword from one side of his waist to the other.

Talibong are also a focal point of esoteric practices; a sword is usually 'activated' via secret rituals. Otherwise, if swords do not undergo these, they are considered as 'empty'.

[David]

Originally Posted by xasterix

Another great Talibong with a Kinampit blade profile!

Btw don't be confused when I call it Talibong (as it's a general term for a fighting blade); Tenegre is also a valid term that connotes the blade came from lowlanders. I read there that you were wondering why the sword was dressed up, here's the explanation as recounted by the collector who I bought mine from:

"This is supposedly kept in the house and is only worn during fiestas and other occasions. The owner would wear a white polo shirt and tie the blade behind his back. It is not unusual for them to get into fights when they are inebriated. Most fights were slashing type of movements since apparently they did not want to kill each other. This went on till the late 80s because it was only the local government who maintained peace and order in remote areas. The Philippine Constabulary did not reach many barrios during those days."

Another friend who was very familiar with the ways of the different tribes and locals in the area remarked that it was usually a very fatal warning sign if the owner of a talibong moved his sword from one side of his waist to the other.

Talibong are also a focal point of esoteric practices; a sword is usually 'activated' via secret rituals. Otherwise, if swords do not undergo these, they are considered as 'empty'.

Interesting that my blade would be classified for the same blade profile as Detlef's. True, the both seem to have a false top edge at the tip, but my tip seems more like a clip point. Detlef's bottom edge seems perfectly straight, while mine bellies a bit and curves upward at the tip. Also not visible in my photos is the the reverse side of my blade is perfectly flat, while the side shown in my photos is more concave (in an angular fashion), giving it a similar design to a mandau. I cannot tell for sure if Detlef's blade does this or not. Can you confirm?
I don't believe it was i who was curious about the manner of dress for this blade. While i appreciate your description of cultural usage i'm fairly certain that my example was made for a returning WWII U.S. soldier, especially given the American eagle holding the crossed U.S. and Filipino flags with the word "Victory" on the banner.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by David

Interesting that my blade would be classified for the same blade profile as Detlef's. True, the both seem to have a false top edge at the tip, but my tip seems more like a clip point. Detlef's bottom edge seems perfectly straight, while mine bellies a bit and curves upward at the tip. Also not visible in my photos is the the reverse side of my blade is perfectly flat, while the side shown in my photos is more concave (in an angular fashion), giving it a similar design to a mandau. I cannot tell for sure if Detlef's blade does this or not. Can you confirm?
I don't believe it was i who was curious about the manner of dress for this blade. While i appreciate your description of cultural usage i'm fairly certain that my example was made for a returning WWII U.S. soldier, especially given the American eagle holding the crossed U.S. and Filipino flags with the word "Victory" on the banner.

My apologies, David, upon closer inspection yours is actually Bakutan. The blade profiles can be quite confusing; good thing you pointed out that it bellies a bit. I'm confident that Detlef's is also chisel grind (that's the usual configuration of Visayan blades; one side beveled, the other flat). It's highly possible that it was already in use before the War, and was given in gratitude to a U.S. soldier. Interesting thing about that false edge- even in modern talibongs, sometimes it's there, sometimes it isn't.

[David]

Originally Posted by xasterix

My apologies, David, upon closer inspection yours is actually Bakutan. The blade profiles can be quite confusing; good thing you pointed out that it bellies a bit. I'm confident that Detlef's is also chisel grind (that's the usual configuration of Visayan blades; one side beveled, the other flat). It's highly possible that it was already in use before the War, and was given in gratitude to a U.S. soldier. Interesting thing about that false edge- even in modern talibongs, sometimes it's there, sometimes it isn't.

No worries Xasterix, and nice to have an identifier on the blade type. Can you tell us where your information is referenced from. I have never seen such specifics of these type of blades before.
Yes, i suppose this blade my have seen some use before the war. One thing for certain is that it is a very serious blade, not made cheaply or just for show and it does show some wear, though in what context it is hard to say.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by David

No worries Xasterix, and nice to have an identifier on the blade type. Can you tell us where your information is referenced from. I have never seen such specifics of these type of blades before.
Yes, i suppose this blade my have seen some use before the war. One thing for certain is that it is a very serious blade, not made cheaply or just for show and it does show some wear, though in what context it is hard to say.

Hi David, I'm attaching here the reference pic from Filipino Traditional Blades, I just added the numbers. The persons on the ground (with some native to Iloilo), are a mix of mountaineers and speleologists who have made it their life's work to rediscover modern traditional blades, with an occasional benchmarking against available vintage and antique samples both in PH and abroad.

Originally Posted by kai

1. I'd tend to refer to this 17" blade as ginunting even if it exhibits a false edge & slight belly and leans forward a tad; hilt Bakunawa (= Binukay?). Ilonggo, I'd guess?

Hi Kai, yes that is indeed a ginunting according to the FilTradBlades classification; regarding the hilt, I'll ask around what it's called. And yep, it must be Ilonggo; as far as I can tell, the metal accents on the scabbard and the hilt seem to be consistent among Iloilo blades.

Originally Posted by kai

2. A basically straight 19" blade - IMHO it seems tough to call this a clip point; with such slender & straight blades the separation between bakutan and linamay seem to blur... BTW, what is the name of this traditional hilt style? Does the distinct scabbard style allow to narrow down its origin?

As stated in the FilTradBlades page, they classify that basic hilt style as "utility". You're right there is some blurring of blade profile classification. Here are my takes on the different blade profiles:

1. Linamay- starts narrow from the tang, then straight spine, bulges near the tip, no false edge.

2. Bakutan- May be narrow all throughout or progresses in the same way as Linamay; a clip point starts from the last 1/5th or even 1/7th of the blade; the underside (blade edge) is round. May have a false edge.

The main confusion, even among locals, is focused on the kinampit and ginunting, reason being that smiths from different areas in Panay may classify them about the same, or interchange the terms. With regard to FilTradBlade's classification, I believe they classify it as such:

3. Ginunting- Resembles an upside-down linamay.

4. Kinampit- Resembles the usual ginunting blade profile found in many modern blades.

That being said...I use the 'kinampit' term more often, as the locals of Libacao, Aklan (the highlands) prefer use that as a catch-both term. There are several sources in Panay Island of modern talibong, I believe these may be the same sources for the vintage and antique ones [proceeds from municipality, province] :

1. Estancia, Iloilo
2. Sibalom, Antique
3. Culasi, Antique
4. Tapaz, Capiz
5. Libacao, Aklan

Originally Posted by kai

BTW, what language did you utilize as lingua franca for the given names (Panay pieces)? Any chance to assemble a table specifying the equivalent terms for all ethnic (sub)groups?

I have to double-check this, but I believe the main dialect used for classification was Hiligaynon, the major dialect in Panay Island. It has many similarities with Cebuano. Kai, great idea on the language and classification table; I'll suggest this to the guys on the ground. Regading Negros Island, they have a very similar blade to the Talibong-Linamay which they call "Tiyanan".

I'm including here additional pics of vintage Iloilo talibongs; also from the same source as mine. They haven't been restored yet, straight out of storage I think.