Singular Madura Keris for comment

David · 28th January 2019, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If the blade is too long to allow the pendok to be moved up a few mille, and frankly, I cannot judge this from the photos, but if it is a little too long, I guess there is no alternative but to make a new collar to fill the gap, but I would not solder it in place, I'd leave it as a separate piece.

If i were to do anything this would be my suggestion from the get-go. As both a collector from outside of the culture as well as someone with a conservator's viewpoint i usually prefer not to do any work that permanently changes the piece structurally and cannot be reversed if one wanted to return to piece to the originally collected appearance. A new, separate collar would serve this piece well and should not be too difficult for a skilled craftsman working outside of the culture to construct.

David · 28th January 2019, 05:13 PM

Oh, i btw, i love this keris, but do agree with both Alan and Jean that is deserves a good cleaning and new warangan and, if possible, an adjustment to the pesi to give the blade it's proper angle and a more correct "posture". Ideally, seeing the blade as representative of the man, i believe the angle at which a it is set should not be too upright as to be impertinent, nor too bend as to show weakness.
But in my book this is still a beautiful and unique ensemble.

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2019, 08:00 PM

Jean, the top of this pendok should not be filed down to follow the curve of the gambar , rather, the very slight step from the gambar face down to the foot of the gambar that joins to the gandar should be deepened very slightly and the step itself inlet to accept the top of the pendok. By deepening the front of the gambar foot & the gandar it would be possible to pick up a couple of millimeters to allow the pendok to be moved back, and this, combined with the deepening of the step should give sufficient depth to permit acceptance of the edge of the embossing by the gambar. The back of the gandar will then sit proud of the pendok, it will need to be filled, I prefer a very thin sliver of bambu for this, but layers of cloth or even a piece of cardboard will do the job.

If the pendok were to be free of embossing and engraving, or the border at the top was to be sufficiently wide, filing the top to a curve would be preferred, but the presence of the flowers on this one creates a difficulty, and personally, I would not want to risk damage to the embossing that could be seen.

This is a job that requires some woodcarving skill, very sharp small tools, I prefer dentist's probes and scalpels (most dentists get rid of probes and used scalpels pretty regularly), and a great deal of patience.It does not change the structure of the wrongko, all it does is to create a tiny inlet that cannot be seen, something even less than the normal maintenance carried out on the mouth of a wrongko.

I have suggested this method rather than the alternative, because wood is easier for a layman to work with than is silver or nickel. This inlet approach would be my first preference if I did not have access to a Solo craftsman.

As David has pointed out, for craftsman living in a Western society, a new collar would not be too difficult to make. But I do not know what sort of western craftsman could do this job, I doubt that a fitter/machinist would be appropriate, nor a tool maker, possibly a sculptor, or perhaps a jeweller. But what would the cost be? Western pay rates are very much higher than pay rates in Indonesia. I believe that if any of us wanted to fit a new collar, we would need to make it ourselves. I have done similar work to this in the past, it is a lengthy, fiddling job and requires a lot of patience.

To make a new collar (lis) would be my second choice if I were to be doing the work myself. Obtain a small block of silver slightly larger than the gap to be filled and carve it to fill the gap. It would need to be a very neat fit to the wood, the height of the face of the collar above the pendok would be only about one to two millimeters, the junction of collar and pendok would be undercut to permit a very small acceptance of the top of the pendok, and the cross section would be "D" shaped.

Of course, the preferred solution would be to have it repaired in Indonesia. I used to know a man who could do this and not make a mess of the job, but he died about 20 years ago. Who might be able to do a neat repair now is very questionable.

David, what you say about the hilt angle is absolutely correct, in terms of a Central Javanese kraton, however, this keris is not Central Javanese and was not intended for kraton wear. A keris worn by a farmer or a carpenter or a storekeeper is not subject to the same regulation as a keris worn in a kraton setting. Most particularly so when the keris is in Madura, and the kratons are in Central Jawa.

Then there is the problem of obtaining a perfect hilt angle in Central Javanese terms:- the mendak cannot be adjusted, to adjust hilt angle the hilt would need to have the existing hole filled with a dowel and be re-drilled, easy enough to do, but something that I would not want to do for this keris.

The question of whether or not the wrongko is original to the blade is to my mind totally irrelevant. This question of "original to the blade" is something that seems to be of great importance to collectors based in Western societies, for a genuine pusaka keris it might also be of some importance , especially in Central Jawa, but for the keris of an ordinary person, and for a non-pusaka keris it is, in my experience, something that is not considered important to the vast bulk of of the populace in the keris bearing societies of Jawa and Bali.

We need to think of the keris in its totality as:- male = wilah, female = wrongko, hilt = guardian. We do not let a beautiful woman, or even a not so beautiful woman, go unspoken for if she is divorced or her husband has died. We do not refuse to accept a gate keeper if he has worked for several people previously. We need to apply this way of thinking to the keris.

David · 28th January 2019, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, the top of this pendok should not be filed down to follow the curve of the gambar , rather, the very slight step from the gambar face down to the foot of the gambar that joins to the gandar should be deepened very slightly and the step itself inlet to accept the top of the pendok. By deepening the front of the gambar foot & the gandar it would be possible to pick up a couple of millimeters to allow the pendok to be moved back, and this, combined with the deepening of the step should give sufficient depth to permit acceptance of the edge of the embossing by the gambar. The back of the gandar will then sit proud of the pendok, it will need to be filled, I prefer a very thin sliver of bambu for this, but layers of cloth or even a piece of cardboard will do the job.

I still would not personally be in favor of removal of any of the wood, though i do see how this method could indeed work. I do wonder, however, how the finished product would look seeing as how the top right leaf of the flower sits right at the top edge of the pendok. It seems to me that it might look awkward if pushed up closer to the gambar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As David has pointed out, for craftsman living in a Western society, a new collar would not be too difficult to make. But I do not know what sort of western craftsman could do this job, I doubt that a fitter/machinist would be appropriate, nor a tool maker, possibly a sculptor, or perhaps a jeweller. But what would the cost be? Western pay rates are very much higher than pay rates in Indonesia. I believe that if any of us wanted to fit a new collar, we would need to make it ourselves. I have done similar work to this in the past, it is a lengthy, fiddling job and requires a lot of patience.

To make a new collar (lis) would be my second choice if I were to be doing the work myself. Obtain a small block of silver slightly larger than the gap to be filled and carve it to fill the gap. It would need to be a very neat fit to the wood, the height of the face of the collar above the pendok would be only about one to two millimeters, the junction of collar and pendok would be undercut to permit a very small acceptance of the top of the pendok, and the cross section would be "D" shaped.

I honestly don't know what you would consider too much money, but i certainly know a silversmith who easily do this work for a reasonable cost. I would image i could get this done for well under $100 and on a keris that i care about i would not hesitate to spend that for such a repair.

Athanase · 28th January 2019, 11:42 PM

Thank you all for your advice.

Alan: I understand the concept of "Lis" but I do not understand if it must be in the extension of the surface of the pendok or if it must be in over-thickness, a bit like a border in relief?
I have silver foil (0.5mm thick) but the pendok is brass. I don't know anything about welding, but will this difference in materials not make welding difficult?
Otherwise there is the solution of a fixation with a strong glue of Lis on the pendok (removable with acetone).

In any case, it's not the blade that hindts the advanced pendok (I try without) is the width of the base of the gambar which is too big. At maximum the pendok arrives at 1mm from the edge of the left and right side.

For the pesi this can be done by my brother who is locksmith / metaller (he manufactures and installs gates, banisters, guardrails etc ...)
For the work of silver I asked him, he never learned and his tools are too big for such fine work.

For the washing of the blade it is possible (vinegar, or citric acid), but for staining .... it's complicated to find realgar, good lemons, good dosages ... I already made 2 test on very average blades, the first did nothing (I think the indicated dose of realgar was too low). And the second made a very ugly result (the realgar had largely turned into orpiment).

David · 29th January 2019, 12:48 AM

Athanase, i would not solder the new collar in place. I believe Alan made the same suggestion earlier.

"If the blade is too long to allow the pendok to be moved up a few mille, and frankly, I cannot judge this from the photos, but if it is a little too long, I guess there is no alternative but to make a new collar to fill the gap, but I would not solder it in place, I'd leave it as a separate piece."

A. G. Maisey · 29th January 2019, 08:16 AM

David, I believe that the non-lis repair would make this wrongko look better than it does now, and it has the advantage of no cost and simplicity, it is something that I believe most people could do with very little skill, and a great degree of patience, but it would not be as good as a new infill collar.

The amount of money that I consider to be too much for a repair that I need to pay for is the amount that I cannot recoup if I wish to sell the restored object.

It is the same with anything that you invest money in:- you want to get back the money you have invested + opportunity cost as a bare minimum, if you can make a small profit, that's good too, but it is not essential. What you do not want is to have more money invested in something than you can sell it for.

In respect of this keris, just for the sake of argument, let's say I bought this in Jawa from a dealer. If I were to add $US100 to the purchase price I would need to pay, and I sold it fairly quickly, so that opportunity cost was not significant, the price I would need to ask would make it impossible to sell on the market I sell in.

However, if had bought it cheaply at a weekend market, or from somebody who did not know its value, then maybe $US100 would not be too much.

The cost that makes a repair unreasonable is the cost that causes you to lose money when you sell the object, and that applies to anything at all that you invest money in.

Athanase

I'm away from home for about 9 or 10 days, when I get home I'll post pics of a pendoks with lis, but for your pendok, the lis would be a little bit different because it would need to cover all the open space. It would be a separate part from the pendok, but once in place it would look as if it was a part of the pendok.

However, I believe the difficulty would be finding a silver smith who would be prepared to accept the job and could do a neat job and not charge too much. I know two manufacturing jewelers as long time friends, I have asked them in the past to do small jobs for me and they refuse on the basis that such a job interrupts work flow, it probably needs two attempts to get it right, and the cost would be too high for what it is.

I do not know any Australian silver smiths, I think they would be few and far between here. I do know a number of Javanese and Balinese silver smiths, but I do not know any there whom I would trust with work like this, my experience is that they can do very good new work, but will not spend time on neat repair work.

David has said that he knows a silver smith who could do this job at a reasonable cost, but I do not.

As for the size of gambar foot, you simply scrape this back so that the pendok can move up. This is absolutely normal, basic work that is done frequently. You do not need to force it, you just take a small sharp blade and scrape a little bit of wood away until the pendok will move up. In fact, you will probably need to scrape some wood off the gandar as well as the gambar foot, and maybe take a little off the tip of the gandar. Its all very easy, straightforward stuff.

The pesi is very likely to able to be bent by finger pressure alone, even if you need to use a vice, this adjustment takes about 40 seconds.

Everything that needs to be done is in my opinion capable of being done by somebody who knows what end of a hammer to hold on to. But it will require care and patience.

28th January 2019, 05:13 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Oh, i btw, i love this keris, but do agree with both Alan and Jean that is deserves a good cleaning and new warangan and, if possible, an adjustment to the pesi to give the blade it's proper angle and a more correct "posture". Ideally, seeing the blade as representative of the man, i believe the angle at which a it is set should not be too upright as to be impertinent, nor too bend as to show weakness. But in my book this is still a beautiful and unique ensemble.

28th January 2019, 08:00 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Jean, the top of this pendok should not be filed down to follow the curve of the gambar , rather, the very slight step from the gambar face down to the foot of the gambar that joins to the gandar should be deepened very slightly and the step itself inlet to accept the top of the pendok. By deepening the front of the gambar foot & the gandar it would be possible to pick up a couple of millimeters to allow the pendok to be moved back, and this, combined with the deepening of the step should give sufficient depth to permit acceptance of the edge of the embossing by the gambar. The back of the gandar will then sit proud of the pendok, it will need to be filled, I prefer a very thin sliver of bambu for this, but layers of cloth or even a piece of cardboard will do the job. If the pendok were to be free of embossing and engraving, or the border at the top was to be sufficiently wide, filing the top to a curve would be preferred, but the presence of the flowers on this one creates a difficulty, and personally, I would not want to risk damage to the embossing that could be seen. This is a job that requires some woodcarving skill, very sharp small tools, I prefer dentist's probes and scalpels (most dentists get rid of probes and used scalpels pretty regularly), and a great deal of patience.It does not change the structure of the wrongko, all it does is to create a tiny inlet that cannot be seen, something even less than the normal maintenance carried out on the mouth of a wrongko. I have suggested this method rather than the alternative, because wood is easier for a layman to work with than is silver or nickel. This inlet approach would be my first preference if I did not have access to a Solo craftsman. As David has pointed out, for craftsman living in a Western society, a new collar would not be too difficult to make. But I do not know what sort of western craftsman could do this job, I doubt that a fitter/machinist would be appropriate, nor a tool maker, possibly a sculptor, or perhaps a jeweller. But what would the cost be? Western pay rates are very much higher than pay rates in Indonesia. I believe that if any of us wanted to fit a new collar, we would need to make it ourselves. I have done similar work to this in the past, it is a lengthy, fiddling job and requires a lot of patience. To make a new collar (lis) would be my second choice if I were to be doing the work myself. Obtain a small block of silver slightly larger than the gap to be filled and carve it to fill the gap. It would need to be a very neat fit to the wood, the height of the face of the collar above the pendok would be only about one to two millimeters, the junction of collar and pendok would be undercut to permit a very small acceptance of the top of the pendok, and the cross section would be "D" shaped. Of course, the preferred solution would be to have it repaired in Indonesia. I used to know a man who could do this and not make a mess of the job, but he died about 20 years ago. Who might be able to do a neat repair now is very questionable. David, what you say about the hilt angle is absolutely correct, in terms of a Central Javanese kraton, however, this keris is not Central Javanese and was not intended for kraton wear. A keris worn by a farmer or a carpenter or a storekeeper is not subject to the same regulation as a keris worn in a kraton setting. Most particularly so when the keris is in Madura, and the kratons are in Central Jawa. Then there is the problem of obtaining a perfect hilt angle in Central Javanese terms:- the mendak cannot be adjusted, to adjust hilt angle the hilt would need to have the existing hole filled with a dowel and be re-drilled, easy enough to do, but something that I would not want to do for this keris. The question of whether or not the wrongko is original to the blade is to my mind totally irrelevant. This question of "original to the blade" is something that seems to be of great importance to collectors based in Western societies, for a genuine pusaka keris it might also be of some importance , especially in Central Jawa, but for the keris of an ordinary person, and for a non-pusaka keris it is, in my experience, something that is not considered important to the vast bulk of of the populace in the keris bearing societies of Jawa and Bali. We need to think of the keris in its totality as:- male = wilah, female = wrongko, hilt = guardian. We do not let a beautiful woman, or even a not so beautiful woman, go unspoken for if she is divorced or her husband has died. We do not refuse to accept a gate keeper if he has worked for several people previously. We need to apply this way of thinking to the keris.

28th January 2019, 11:42 PM	#5
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 417	Thank you all for your advice. Alan: I understand the concept of "Lis" but I do not understand if it must be in the extension of the surface of the pendok or if it must be in over-thickness, a bit like a border in relief? I have silver foil (0.5mm thick) but the pendok is brass. I don't know anything about welding, but will this difference in materials not make welding difficult? Otherwise there is the solution of a fixation with a strong glue of Lis on the pendok (removable with acetone). In any case, it's not the blade that hindts the advanced pendok (I try without) is the width of the base of the gambar which is too big. At maximum the pendok arrives at 1mm from the edge of the left and right side. For the pesi this can be done by my brother who is locksmith / metaller (he manufactures and installs gates, banisters, guardrails etc ...) For the work of silver I asked him, he never learned and his tools are too big for such fine work. For the washing of the blade it is possible (vinegar, or citric acid), but for staining .... it's complicated to find realgar, good lemons, good dosages ... I already made 2 test on very average blades, the first did nothing (I think the indicated dose of realgar was too low). And the second made a very ugly result (the realgar had largely turned into orpiment).

29th January 2019, 12:48 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Athanase, i would not solder the new collar in place. I believe Alan made the same suggestion earlier. "If the blade is too long to allow the pendok to be moved up a few mille, and frankly, I cannot judge this from the photos, but if it is a little too long, I guess there is no alternative but to make a new collar to fill the gap, but I would not solder it in place, I'd leave it as a separate piece."

29th January 2019, 08:16 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	David, I believe that the non-lis repair would make this wrongko look better than it does now, and it has the advantage of no cost and simplicity, it is something that I believe most people could do with very little skill, and a great degree of patience, but it would not be as good as a new infill collar. The amount of money that I consider to be too much for a repair that I need to pay for is the amount that I cannot recoup if I wish to sell the restored object. It is the same with anything that you invest money in:- you want to get back the money you have invested + opportunity cost as a bare minimum, if you can make a small profit, that's good too, but it is not essential. What you do not want is to have more money invested in something than you can sell it for. In respect of this keris, just for the sake of argument, let's say I bought this in Jawa from a dealer. If I were to add $US100 to the purchase price I would need to pay, and I sold it fairly quickly, so that opportunity cost was not significant, the price I would need to ask would make it impossible to sell on the market I sell in. However, if had bought it cheaply at a weekend market, or from somebody who did not know its value, then maybe $US100 would not be too much. The cost that makes a repair unreasonable is the cost that causes you to lose money when you sell the object, and that applies to anything at all that you invest money in. Athanase I'm away from home for about 9 or 10 days, when I get home I'll post pics of a pendoks with lis, but for your pendok, the lis would be a little bit different because it would need to cover all the open space. It would be a separate part from the pendok, but once in place it would look as if it was a part of the pendok. However, I believe the difficulty would be finding a silver smith who would be prepared to accept the job and could do a neat job and not charge too much. I know two manufacturing jewelers as long time friends, I have asked them in the past to do small jobs for me and they refuse on the basis that such a job interrupts work flow, it probably needs two attempts to get it right, and the cost would be too high for what it is. I do not know any Australian silver smiths, I think they would be few and far between here. I do know a number of Javanese and Balinese silver smiths, but I do not know any there whom I would trust with work like this, my experience is that they can do very good new work, but will not spend time on neat repair work. David has said that he knows a silver smith who could do this job at a reasonable cost, but I do not. As for the size of gambar foot, you simply scrape this back so that the pendok can move up. This is absolutely normal, basic work that is done frequently. You do not need to force it, you just take a small sharp blade and scrape a little bit of wood away until the pendok will move up. In fact, you will probably need to scrape some wood off the gandar as well as the gambar foot, and maybe take a little off the tip of the gandar. Its all very easy, straightforward stuff. The pesi is very likely to able to be bent by finger pressure alone, even if you need to use a vice, this adjustment takes about 40 seconds. Everything that needs to be done is in my opinion capable of being done by somebody who knows what end of a hammer to hold on to. But it will require care and patience.