Afghan Pistol

[Jim McDougall]

This has been a great insight into this pistol, thank you guys for your patient explanations. I agree on the Liege notes, the ELG proof marks do not seem implemented on pre Napoleonic period weapons as Fernando has suggested, and I would ask as well if that is correct.

While the horrible execution of the crowned GR and DUBLIN CASTLE very much make me think of Khyber as suggested by Stu the more I think of it....that front piece (holding ramrod and absent on British models) is very French/Belgian, and as Corrado notes points to the Liege theory.

Also, Corrado, I cannot find more on the placing of assembler (?) name behind lock as the 'HERBERT' in this example. If this was an Afghan copy, it does not seem they would include such an obscured detail . ,,,by the same token, in Liege it does not seem they would use that either. However if this was the same of the maker in Liege as suggested it would make sense.


As I have noted, this is far outside my field, but it is great to learn more through this discussion. Also, I have few references on British guns, but Mr. Brooker's reference is outstanding with wonderful details and most helpful, so Corrado, please extend my thanks and compliments to him!! Its so much easier to read than others I have looked through.

[corrado26]

I'd really extend your thanks and compliments to Bob Brooker, but as far as I know he is rather ill and do not know wether my email will reach him or not. I have to thank him too very much because I got from him the fotos of a very big part of his collection of pistols of many countries. This is an inestimable treasure and advantage which helps a lot in identifying unknown military pistols.
corrado26

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I agree on the Liege notes, the ELG proof marks do not seem implemented on pre Napoleonic period weapons as Fernando has suggested, and I would ask as well if that is correct. ..

I just didn't want to previously enter in such an categorical tone; but here you go:
Liege (much before Belgium) had armor builders since the XIII-XIV century. Circa 1700 was one of the more important world centers in relation with firearms. Political turbulence in the end of the XVIII century and beginning of the XIX, disorganized the profession of gunsmith, corporate regime was suppressed, markets were closed due a state of war, followed by the establishment of a State monopoly on military materials, determining an important crisis in the industry and trade of arms. That is when Monsieur Bonaparte broke in, reestablishing the Proof house, restoring its force of law; and that is as from when 'modern' Liege marks appeared.
Still i am only the piano player .

[kahnjar1]

Though not directly on the subject of Rick's pistol, here are the Liege Proof Marks discussed above, and details/dates when used.
As an aside, I personally do not believe that the word HERBERT inside the lock mortice has anything to do with Liege, or is in fact a "makers" name, so it remains a mystery.
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Stu, I couldn't find any useful list of these marks as my gun resources are limited. Very much appreciated.
Perhaps you are right on the HERBERT name inside, it probably has nothing to do with Liege......I think we are all agreed this is far too crudely marked for any possible Irish (British) production...….and for that matter, Liege work is far crisper etc.

The lettering on this is so clumsy, and as Corrado has noted, the broad arrow is absent. With the British proof marks, Afghans often used old components so it could be authentic old barrel.


It really is hard to determine composite weapons as not only were they refurbished during working lives, ersatz weapons in time of trouble but even more confounding is that innovative modern dealers and commercial interests do the same thing with parts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The pistol is from Afghanistan. it is a copy >>>This is WHAT THEY TERM AN APPRENTICE PIECE DONE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET WHICH OTHER THAN SOME MILITARY PERSONNEL IS NON EXISTANT... IN KABUL SOUK YOU CAN SEE HUNDREDS OF THESE AND SIMILAR>>>FOR SOME REASON THEY ALWAYS MESS UP THE SPELLING AND BALANCE OF THE WORDS.

[corrado26]

.........and you really belief that this "HERBERT" written in a letter type like Times New Roman has been made in an Afghan backyard shop?
corrado26

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by corrado26

.........and you really belief that this "HERBERT" written in a letter type like Times New Roman has been made in an Afghan backyard shop?
corrado26

Yes I do believe it because I've seen it. I can show you a video of exactly the detailed expertise from the weapon making centres but for modern weapons … and actually there is a workshop near me making wooden parts for guns...artisans from Afghanistan. I wish I had taken pictures in Kabul but maybe I can get my friends there to take a few of them. They use all the old stamping kit including getting the letters with the little tails on them but quite often spell the name with letters reversed probably by mistake... and especially on Martini Henrys and pistols.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The pistol is from Afghanistan. it is a copy >>>This is WHAT THEY TERM AN APPRENTICE PIECE DONE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET WHICH OTHER THAN SOME MILITARY PERSONNEL IS NON EXISTANT... IN KABUL SOUK YOU CAN SEE HUNDREDS OF THESE AND SIMILAR>>>FOR SOME REASON THEY ALWAYS MESS UP THE SPELLING AND BALANCE OF THE WORDS.

.......so what is your explanation of the genuine English Proof marks on the barrel? I find it hard to believe that anyone making pistols for the "Tourist" market would bother to try and fake these.
As a matter of general interest, and to add to library pics, could you please post some pics of the Kabul souk showing these "hundreds" of pistols. I'm sure that others here would be very interested to see these.
Stu

[fernando]

It is well known that the different parts of firearms were made by different specialized smiths, in their own shops and then sent to assembly.
Before mechanization systems were implemented, manual output had (slight) measurement variations, the various parts of an assembly having to be "fine tuned", i.e., adjusted to accomodate their specific partner. It is expectable that the stock, being the softer part, had to be adjusted to its barrel ... and lock. This system is evidentiated by the cuts we can see in this stock mortise; it would be no surprise to find the same number of cuts underneath its chosen barrel*, if still being the case ... as also inside the lock plate.
I do not see why Mr. Herbert was not the head of the Liegeoise workshop where this stock came from

*As per illustrated example.


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[fernando]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Though not directly on the subject of Rick's pistol, here are the Liege Proof Marks discussed above, and details/dates when used...

As we may see Stu, the only existing mark before Napoleon was the Tower symbol, which he abolished, only being restored in 1853; notwithstanding that, as i have once read, the guns trade in such earlier period not being strictly controlled, many smiths didn't care to send their pieces for approval;whether because of proof testing costs or other reasons, i don't recall. But i certainly know that many a gun made in Liege in the XVIII century, had no marks at all, as per this fine example i once owned.

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