The Flying Keris

Jean · 19th January 2019, 01:03 PM

A long but very educative post Alan, thanks!

I am using either Ballistol or WD40 sprays for avoiding blade rusting and it works very well, contrary to the traditional scented oils. If I remember well I could not apply scented oil on a blade already treated with WD40 as it would not penetrate into the metal.
Regards

Pusaka · 19th January 2019, 03:39 PM

Rusting is the process of oxidisation or loss of electrons. Is it possible that those who do not want to add synthetic or petroleum based oils/preservers to their blades might find something in nature to provide some protection?

Some time ago 72 essential oils were evaluated for their antioxidant quality's, their ability to stop oxidisation. Clove oil was found to be the most potent so I guess the Japanese sword makers got it right. Unfortunately I do not like the smell of clove. Rose ranked 10th Ylang Ylang 14th, Wintergreen 18th. Of all the oils they tested Sandalwood had the lowest antioxidant value. Anise ranked 3rd...could be something to experiment with.

Wintergreen oil is traditionally added to coconut base keris oils to prevent the oil going rancid. This is perhaps what gives Ylang Ylang keris oil a kick that straight Ylang Ylang essential oil lacks.

I think in older times keris oils were not made from essential oils but be boiling all kinds of herb matter and flowers in coconut oil.

Jojoba Oil as a base although not commonly used as a keris oil is superior to coconut due to it being despite the name a wax that is liquid at room temperature.

Evaporation of these oils however needs to be prevented and placing the blade in a plastic sheath would be a good means to achieve this.

Clove – 1,078,700
Myrrh – 379,800
Anise – 333,700
Citronella – 312,000
Coriander – 298,300
Fennel – 238,400
Clary Sage – 221,000
German Chamomile – 218,600
Cedarwood – 169,000
Rose – 158,100
Nutmeg – 158,100
Marjoram – 151,000
Melissa – 139,905
Ylang Ylang – 134,300
Palmarosa – 130,000
Rosewood – 113,200
Manuka – 106,200
Wintergreen – 101,800
Geranium – 101,000
Ginger – 99,300
Bay Laurel – 98,900
Eucalyptus Citriodora – 83,000
Cumin – 82,400
Black Pepper – 79,700
Vetiver – 74,300
Petitgrain – 73,600
Blue Cypress – 73,100
Citrus Hystrix/Combava/Kaffir Lime – 69,200
Douglas Fir – 69,000
Blue Tansy – 68,800
Goldenrod – 61,900
Melaleuca ericifolia/Rosalina – 61,100
Blue Yarrow – 55,900
Spikenard – 54,800
Basil – 54,000
Patchouli – 49,400
White Fir – 47,900
Tarragon – 37,900
Melaleuca Cajeputi/Cajeput – 37,600
Peppermint – 37,300
Cardamom – 36,500
Dill – 35,600
Celery Seed – 30,300
Fleabane, Canadian – 26,700
Mandarin – 26,500
Lime – 26,200
Galbanum – 26,200
Myrtle – 25,400
Cypress – 24,300
Grapefruit – 22,600
Hyssop – 20,900
Balsam Fir – 20,500
Melaleuca Quinquenervia/Niaouli – 18,600
Thyme – 15,960
Oregano – 15,300
Cassia – 15,170
Sage – 14,800
Mountain Savory – 11,300
Cinnamon Bark – 10,340
Tsuga – 7,100
Valerian – 6,200
Cistus – 3,860
Eucalyptus Globulus – 2,410
Orange – 1,890
Lemongrass – 1,780
Helichrysum – 1,740
Ravintsara – 890
Lemon – 660
Frankincense Carteri – 630
Spearmint – 540
Lavender – 360
Rosemary – 330
Juniper – 250
Roman Chamomile – 240
Sandalwood – 160

A. G. Maisey · 19th January 2019, 09:01 PM

Jean, as I mentioned in my lengthy post above, I have used WD40 for a very long time.

If WD40 became publicly available in Australia in , say, 1965, it is certain that I have treated more than 2000 blades with WD40. I began treating all sorts of blades, keris included, with penetrating oil sometime between 1953 and 1960, as soon as WD40 became available I began to use that. Between 1953 and 1960 I would have treated perhaps a couple of hundred blades.

My keris collection began in 1953 with a gift of a collection from my grandfather, I still have some of those keris and other edged weapons, and they would have been treated several times with WD40 during the time I have had them.

I have never experienced any problem at all that is related to the inability of fragrant oils to penetrate WD40 or the penetrating oil I used to use. In fact several times prior to 1966 I used clove oil on my keris. I did this because at that time I was unaware of the oils used in Jawa for keris, but I had heard that Japanese blades were anointed with clove oil, so I jumped onto the clove oil cart.

I have not used clove oil on a blade in more than 50 years, however, some of blades that I anointed with clove oil more than 50 years ago still retain a very faint smell of clove oil that underlies the later applications of sandalwood and kenongo.

I do not know why your use of WD40 did not produce satisfactory results, and if you have no confidence in WD40 for whatever reason, it is best that you do not use it, but WD40 most certainly does work for me.

Pusaka, I greatly appreciate your detailed listing of the protective qualities of some natural oils, however, in the case of the oils that are traditionally used on keris in Jawa, this information is not really relevant. The oils that we use in Jawa are selected for social and cultural reasons, not really for efficacy as protectant barriers against corrosion. Of course whatever oil is used on a blade, there will be some protective effect, but in in Jawa, that effect is a side effect, not a primary objective.

Once a keris moves outside its Javanese, or other natural environment, it has been freed from the parameters that would apply in its place of origin, most particularly so where that keris is in the custody of a person whose objectives in having possession of the keris differ from the objectives of a person from the originating culture of the keris.

In other words once it has ceased to be a part of its originating culture and is being cared for by a person who does not understand that culture, any oil that gives some sort of protection is better than no oil at all.

As I just mentioned, I used clove oil myself many years ago, I used to buy it from a pharmacist. I do not find the smell particularly objectionable, but it used to go hard on the blades, even though I used it, I did not like it much for blade use.

Rose oil is an oil that is considered to be suitable for use on keris, it is not favoured by many people, but it is used.

Ylang ylang oil is definitely not used in Jawa as a traditional keris oil.

What happened with ylang ylang is this:- ylang ylang oil is produced from the same tree that provides kenanga (kenongo) oil, but kenanga oil is produced from the immature flower, ylang ylang is produced from the mature flower.

When minyak (oil) kenongo is used in keris oil, only a very small quantity is used, in the oil that I prepare that quantity is about 5%, its effect is to give a very sharp edge to the smell, and to reduce the sometimes overpowering sweetness of the minyak cendana (cendono - sandalwood).

Now, when keris interested people who live in countries other than Indonesia found out that minyak kenongo was a component of many traditional keris oils, they tried to buy it , but they found that they could not, however, a few of these people did the research and found that minyak kenongo came from the same flower as ylang ylang oil (the cananga odorata blossom). Because they had never smelt raw minyak kenongo they assumed that ylang ylang oil and minyak kenongo were the same. This was an incorrect assumption. Ylang ylang oil is vastly different to minyak kenongo.

In respect of wintergreen oil.
This oil is produced from a group of plants that are native to the Americas, it is most definitely not a component of any keris oil that follows a traditional Javanese combination of oils.
The traditional oils used in Jawa that use coconut oil as a base invariably go rancid and congeal on the blade, unless regularly replaced --- a requirement which is obviously quite beneficial for the people who sell ready to use keris oil.

Bill M · 19th January 2019, 10:09 PM

Fascinating! Not boring.

Jean · 20th January 2019, 08:34 AM

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]
I do not know why your use of WD40 did not produce satisfactory results, and if you have no confidence in WD40 for whatever reason, it is best that you do not use it, but WD40 most certainly does work for me.

Sorry Alan, I did not say that at all, on the contrary!
I just remember one case when I tried to apply a scented oil after treating the blade with WD 40 spray (and letting it to dry and wiping the excess with a cloth as usual) and the oil would not stick to the surface as if the WD40 had produced an impervious barrier. This was probably due to the scented oil composition and anyway I don't use them anymore.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 20th January 2019, 09:50 AM

Please forgive my misunderstanding Jean.

I always allow the WD40 to dry at the very least overnight, then I apply more fragrant oil than is necessary with a varnish brush, I allow that fragrant oil to dry off over a couple of days, normally just stand it point down in the workshop, then I pat the blade down with a lint free cloth, work over the blade with an old tooth brush, and put it into a plastic sleeve.

Seems to last for as long as I wish it to.

Pusaka · 20th January 2019, 12:30 PM

Imperfect translation but found this:

"Coconut oil by the fermentation process will be broken down into acidic granules and other acids, prevention is to mix a little with Gandapura oil, the comparison: 100 cc of coconut oil can be used 10-15 cc of gandapura oil.
Besides sandalwood, kanthil, jasmine (jasmin) / kenanga can be used.

For the Yogya palace the ratio is 1: 1, meaning that 100 cc of coconut oil uses 100 cc of sandalwood oil.

For the solo method, comparison is 25 krengsengan oil: 10 parts of cananga oil: 3 parts of gandapura oil.

Weapon oil can also be used, but many keris esoteri experts say the use of mineral oil will greatly reduce the esoteri of the kris themselves, if not forced to use this type of oil is avoided. "

Bill M · 20th January 2019, 03:19 PM

I use Evapo-Rust for most items. It gently removes rust and cleans deeply. It is a water base, so I follow it up with a soak in WD 40 to removes any residual water.

Also electrolysis does a good job.

Important to soak the article completely for an even cleaning.

Still experimenting with staining solutions. Advice. I can get commercial only chemicals of any kind through a chemistry professor. So also advise. I am extremely careful with toxic chemicals.

19th January 2019, 03:39 PM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Jojoba Oil Rusting is the process of oxidisation or loss of electrons. Is it possible that those who do not want to add synthetic or petroleum based oils/preservers to their blades might find something in nature to provide some protection? Some time ago 72 essential oils were evaluated for their antioxidant quality's, their ability to stop oxidisation. Clove oil was found to be the most potent so I guess the Japanese sword makers got it right. Unfortunately I do not like the smell of clove. Rose ranked 10th Ylang Ylang 14th, Wintergreen 18th. Of all the oils they tested Sandalwood had the lowest antioxidant value. Anise ranked 3rd...could be something to experiment with. Wintergreen oil is traditionally added to coconut base keris oils to prevent the oil going rancid. This is perhaps what gives Ylang Ylang keris oil a kick that straight Ylang Ylang essential oil lacks. I think in older times keris oils were not made from essential oils but be boiling all kinds of herb matter and flowers in coconut oil. Jojoba Oil as a base although not commonly used as a keris oil is superior to coconut due to it being despite the name a wax that is liquid at room temperature. Evaporation of these oils however needs to be prevented and placing the blade in a plastic sheath would be a good means to achieve this. Clove – 1,078,700 Myrrh – 379,800 Anise – 333,700 Citronella – 312,000 Coriander – 298,300 Fennel – 238,400 Clary Sage – 221,000 German Chamomile – 218,600 Cedarwood – 169,000 Rose – 158,100 Nutmeg – 158,100 Marjoram – 151,000 Melissa – 139,905 Ylang Ylang – 134,300 Palmarosa – 130,000 Rosewood – 113,200 Manuka – 106,200 Wintergreen – 101,800 Geranium – 101,000 Ginger – 99,300 Bay Laurel – 98,900 Eucalyptus Citriodora – 83,000 Cumin – 82,400 Black Pepper – 79,700 Vetiver – 74,300 Petitgrain – 73,600 Blue Cypress – 73,100 Citrus Hystrix/Combava/Kaffir Lime – 69,200 Douglas Fir – 69,000 Blue Tansy – 68,800 Goldenrod – 61,900 Melaleuca ericifolia/Rosalina – 61,100 Blue Yarrow – 55,900 Spikenard – 54,800 Basil – 54,000 Patchouli – 49,400 White Fir – 47,900 Tarragon – 37,900 Melaleuca Cajeputi/Cajeput – 37,600 Peppermint – 37,300 Cardamom – 36,500 Dill – 35,600 Celery Seed – 30,300 Fleabane, Canadian – 26,700 Mandarin – 26,500 Lime – 26,200 Galbanum – 26,200 Myrtle – 25,400 Cypress – 24,300 Grapefruit – 22,600 Hyssop – 20,900 Balsam Fir – 20,500 Melaleuca Quinquenervia/Niaouli – 18,600 Thyme – 15,960 Oregano – 15,300 Cassia – 15,170 Sage – 14,800 Mountain Savory – 11,300 Cinnamon Bark – 10,340 Tsuga – 7,100 Valerian – 6,200 Cistus – 3,860 Eucalyptus Globulus – 2,410 Orange – 1,890 Lemongrass – 1,780 Helichrysum – 1,740 Ravintsara – 890 Lemon – 660 Frankincense Carteri – 630 Spearmint – 540 Lavender – 360 Rosemary – 330 Juniper – 250 Roman Chamomile – 240 Sandalwood – 160

20th January 2019, 12:30 PM	#7
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Imperfect translation but found this: "Coconut oil by the fermentation process will be broken down into acidic granules and other acids, prevention is to mix a little with Gandapura oil, the comparison: 100 cc of coconut oil can be used 10-15 cc of gandapura oil. Besides sandalwood, kanthil, jasmine (jasmin) / kenanga can be used. For the Yogya palace the ratio is 1: 1, meaning that 100 cc of coconut oil uses 100 cc of sandalwood oil. For the solo method, comparison is 25 krengsengan oil: 10 parts of cananga oil: 3 parts of gandapura oil. Weapon oil can also be used, but many keris esoteri experts say the use of mineral oil will greatly reduce the esoteri of the kris themselves, if not forced to use this type of oil is avoided. " Last edited by David; 20th January 2019 at 09:43 PM. Reason: While i appreciate the reference, i have removed commercial site link

19th January 2019, 01:03 PM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	A long but very educative post Alan, thanks! I am using either Ballistol or WD40 sprays for avoiding blade rusting and it works very well, contrary to the traditional scented oils. If I remember well I could not apply scented oil on a blade already treated with WD40 as it would not penetrate into the metal. Regards

19th January 2019, 09:01 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	Jean, as I mentioned in my lengthy post above, I have used WD40 for a very long time. If WD40 became publicly available in Australia in , say, 1965, it is certain that I have treated more than 2000 blades with WD40. I began treating all sorts of blades, keris included, with penetrating oil sometime between 1953 and 1960, as soon as WD40 became available I began to use that. Between 1953 and 1960 I would have treated perhaps a couple of hundred blades. My keris collection began in 1953 with a gift of a collection from my grandfather, I still have some of those keris and other edged weapons, and they would have been treated several times with WD40 during the time I have had them. I have never experienced any problem at all that is related to the inability of fragrant oils to penetrate WD40 or the penetrating oil I used to use. In fact several times prior to 1966 I used clove oil on my keris. I did this because at that time I was unaware of the oils used in Jawa for keris, but I had heard that Japanese blades were anointed with clove oil, so I jumped onto the clove oil cart. I have not used clove oil on a blade in more than 50 years, however, some of blades that I anointed with clove oil more than 50 years ago still retain a very faint smell of clove oil that underlies the later applications of sandalwood and kenongo. I do not know why your use of WD40 did not produce satisfactory results, and if you have no confidence in WD40 for whatever reason, it is best that you do not use it, but WD40 most certainly does work for me. Pusaka, I greatly appreciate your detailed listing of the protective qualities of some natural oils, however, in the case of the oils that are traditionally used on keris in Jawa, this information is not really relevant. The oils that we use in Jawa are selected for social and cultural reasons, not really for efficacy as protectant barriers against corrosion. Of course whatever oil is used on a blade, there will be some protective effect, but in in Jawa, that effect is a side effect, not a primary objective. Once a keris moves outside its Javanese, or other natural environment, it has been freed from the parameters that would apply in its place of origin, most particularly so where that keris is in the custody of a person whose objectives in having possession of the keris differ from the objectives of a person from the originating culture of the keris. In other words once it has ceased to be a part of its originating culture and is being cared for by a person who does not understand that culture, any oil that gives some sort of protection is better than no oil at all. As I just mentioned, I used clove oil myself many years ago, I used to buy it from a pharmacist. I do not find the smell particularly objectionable, but it used to go hard on the blades, even though I used it, I did not like it much for blade use. Rose oil is an oil that is considered to be suitable for use on keris, it is not favoured by many people, but it is used. Ylang ylang oil is definitely not used in Jawa as a traditional keris oil. What happened with ylang ylang is this:- ylang ylang oil is produced from the same tree that provides kenanga (kenongo) oil, but kenanga oil is produced from the immature flower, ylang ylang is produced from the mature flower. When minyak (oil) kenongo is used in keris oil, only a very small quantity is used, in the oil that I prepare that quantity is about 5%, its effect is to give a very sharp edge to the smell, and to reduce the sometimes overpowering sweetness of the minyak cendana (cendono - sandalwood). Now, when keris interested people who live in countries other than Indonesia found out that minyak kenongo was a component of many traditional keris oils, they tried to buy it , but they found that they could not, however, a few of these people did the research and found that minyak kenongo came from the same flower as ylang ylang oil (the cananga odorata blossom). Because they had never smelt raw minyak kenongo they assumed that ylang ylang oil and minyak kenongo were the same. This was an incorrect assumption. Ylang ylang oil is vastly different to minyak kenongo. In respect of wintergreen oil. This oil is produced from a group of plants that are native to the Americas, it is most definitely not a component of any keris oil that follows a traditional Javanese combination of oils. The traditional oils used in Jawa that use coconut oil as a base invariably go rancid and congeal on the blade, unless regularly replaced --- a requirement which is obviously quite beneficial for the people who sell ready to use keris oil.

19th January 2019, 10:09 PM	#4
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Fascinating! Not boring.

20th January 2019, 08:34 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey] I do not know why your use of WD40 did not produce satisfactory results, and if you have no confidence in WD40 for whatever reason, it is best that you do not use it, but WD40 most certainly does work for me. Sorry Alan, I did not say that at all, on the contrary! I just remember one case when I tried to apply a scented oil after treating the blade with WD 40 spray (and letting it to dry and wiping the excess with a cloth as usual) and the oil would not stick to the surface as if the WD40 had produced an impervious barrier. This was probably due to the scented oil composition and anyway I don't use them anymore. Regards

20th January 2019, 09:50 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	Please forgive my misunderstanding Jean. I always allow the WD40 to dry at the very least overnight, then I apply more fragrant oil than is necessary with a varnish brush, I allow that fragrant oil to dry off over a couple of days, normally just stand it point down in the workshop, then I pat the blade down with a lint free cloth, work over the blade with an old tooth brush, and put it into a plastic sleeve. Seems to last for as long as I wish it to.

20th January 2019, 03:19 PM	#8
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I use Evapo-Rust for most items. It gently removes rust and cleans deeply. It is a water base, so I follow it up with a soak in WD 40 to removes any residual water. Also electrolysis does a good job. Important to soak the article completely for an even cleaning. Still experimenting with staining solutions. Advice. I can get commercial only chemicals of any kind through a chemistry professor. So also advise. I am extremely careful with toxic chemicals.