Basket hilted swords

Bakerbarang · 28th December 2018, 11:51 PM

I'm new to the forum and am an experienced collector of British Ordnance Flintlock weapons. My experience of swords is, however, very limited and I am seeking to learn from the obvious experience represented in this thread.
A few weeks ago I stumbled on an add on Craigslist - a person was selling three swords. Two of them were tourist trinkets (not actually swords), one appeared to be a British Victorian sword with the grip broken off but the third was a basket hilt. The Craigslist photo was terrible with the swords being almost silhouettes, but the outline of the basket hilt made me suspicious that it wasn’t junk. So, I met the person in a dark and gloomy house but even in the darkness I could see enough to know it was a real sword. I purchased it and took it out to the car in a garbage bag where I could have a real look in the daylight – I was not disappointed. It is a nice sword but I’m still not quite sure what I have. I was initially thinking a 17th century blade with a late 18th century hilt. The hilt, at first, looked like a later style but the presence of small curved quillons and short langets tends to point to something earlier. Am I right here? The more I looked at it (the overall condition and pommel riveting) it looked original and un-messed with. A gentle clean of the blade revealed markings which look old. So, do I have a 17th century Scottish sword? Internet searches reveal very little to guide me and the only text reference I can find to anything similar in form are on page 61 and 62 of Mazansky’s British Basket-Hilted Swords. But all of this represents my guesswork. I'm hoping some of you can guide me since the sword learning curve is extremely steep and Im having trouble putting this sword in some sort of age and ethnic context.

Any ideas/advice would be appreciated?

Anyway, I’m thrilled to have found this sword in a pile of unrecognized junk on Craigslist!

Thanks for your time.

fernando · 29th December 2018, 03:53 PM

Welcome to the forum Baker ...
I am not the indicated person to enlighten you on your sword but, being a fan of marks, let me ask you if you have tried to decipher what that mark on the blade is about ?

Battara · 29th December 2018, 06:42 PM

Nice catch! I too got a great catch from Craigs list long ago.

Anyway, though your piece is truly old, it is an English and not Scottish basket hilt. The symbols? - I'll leave that to others.

Jim McDougall · 29th December 2018, 10:21 PM

It is hard to say with certainty with basket hilts whether English or Scottish as these denominators were pretty transcendent in these times and regions, but most characteristics suggest it is made by Scottish artisans. It is most certainly, as typical, a Solingen blade. The cross and orb coupled with the 'anchor' is atypical but commonly placed as here at the fuller terminus as far as I have seen on most blades of this time period.
This does seem a 17th century blade, and the hilt latter 17th-early 18th. The arms of the saltires entering the pommel is characteristic of Scottish hilt making, and makers in the garrison centers often produced for Highland units in the British army, but there are features which suggest profound Scottish symbolism such as the heart and especially the scallop shell....which if I recall had Jacobite associations. This was a relatively rarely seen symbol for the Spanish allies to the Jacobite cause.

Without going into notes and research, my inclination is toward a very Scottish basket hilt of at early 18th c. and most probably from border or lowland regions during the risings. It must be remembered that the distinctions between opposing sides were not truly delineated between Highland and Lowland; Scottish or English nor Jacobite against Government..so such classification is at this stage improbable.

This is a FANTASTIC piece!!! and Bakerbarang, I cannot thank you enough for sharing it here...….and I envy your fortitude in taking a chance on what is truly an amazing find! Congratulations! This is a truly valuable find.

I am hoping that the 'real' experts here like Cathey and Eljay might come in with their views, but in the meantime I add what I can based on what I can recall of previous researches.

PS. Personally I would avoid restoration beyond stabilizing any active corrosion, I have a ribbon hilt intact like this but the grip gone, and of the same period c.1690s, or earlier. I like its static condition as it to me represents history incarnate, and is rustically beautiful.

Cathey · 30th December 2018, 06:57 AM

Hi Bakerbarang

I can honestly say I have not seen one of these before. You are correct in that it does closely resemble the one featured on Page 62 of MAZANSKY Cyril British Basket-hilted Swords. I have not seen this pear shaped pommel with a hilt featuring this degree of decoration before on a sword of this age. Would you mind posting more pictures, particularly the entire sword and blade and some dimensions, ie, blade width length etc. I will go back though my data base and see what I can find. Also have you tried to flex the blade or is it stiff.

Cheers Cathey

E.B. Erickson · 30th December 2018, 09:31 AM

This nice sword got posted on MyArmoury a couple of days ago. My initial response is below.

You found that on Craigslist!!?? If I wasn't in Thailand I'd pay more attention to CL ads! Nice sword!

At any rate, my initial thought is English, very late 1500s/early 1600s (assuming that someone hasn't done an absolutely great job of forgery on the basket). There are a number of English characteristics on the hilt that are similar to other hilts of the period, like the quillons, which are actually fairly long, but bent back upon themselves.

The main item that would make me think Scottish is the pommel; it has rectangular slots to receive the ends of the hilt, which, as far as I know, may be an indicator of Scots manufacture. The little "langets" at the blade shoulder is also something that hints at Scotland.

Interestingly, look at the crude, undecorated, though nicely shaped, pommel and the rather nice workmanship on the basket. And yet everything appears to have a similar amount of pitting, and the pommel shape is certainly consistent with the early 1600s.

So I guess my vote is English, as per paragraph 2 above. That is not a dogmatic statement, though: feel free to sway me to Scotland with evidence!

By the way, how long is the blade?

--ElJay

Jim McDougall · 30th December 2018, 04:57 PM

Thanks very much Eljay! I would not have imagined this hilt being that early!
I agree though, there are very English factors but the pommel attachment method rings Scottish. Also, the scallop shell ornament, any thoughts?
Very Spanish.....not something often seen in English use as far as I have known.
Cathey looking forward to your results!! Your data base is phenomenal !!!

28th December 2018, 11:51 PM	#1
Bakerbarang Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: British Columbia, Canada. Posts: 4	A 17th Scottish Basket Hilt? I'm new to the forum and am an experienced collector of British Ordnance Flintlock weapons. My experience of swords is, however, very limited and I am seeking to learn from the obvious experience represented in this thread. A few weeks ago I stumbled on an add on Craigslist - a person was selling three swords. Two of them were tourist trinkets (not actually swords), one appeared to be a British Victorian sword with the grip broken off but the third was a basket hilt. The Craigslist photo was terrible with the swords being almost silhouettes, but the outline of the basket hilt made me suspicious that it wasn’t junk. So, I met the person in a dark and gloomy house but even in the darkness I could see enough to know it was a real sword. I purchased it and took it out to the car in a garbage bag where I could have a real look in the daylight – I was not disappointed. It is a nice sword but I’m still not quite sure what I have. I was initially thinking a 17th century blade with a late 18th century hilt. The hilt, at first, looked like a later style but the presence of small curved quillons and short langets tends to point to something earlier. Am I right here? The more I looked at it (the overall condition and pommel riveting) it looked original and un-messed with. A gentle clean of the blade revealed markings which look old. So, do I have a 17th century Scottish sword? Internet searches reveal very little to guide me and the only text reference I can find to anything similar in form are on page 61 and 62 of Mazansky’s British Basket-Hilted Swords. But all of this represents my guesswork. I'm hoping some of you can guide me since the sword learning curve is extremely steep and Im having trouble putting this sword in some sort of age and ethnic context. Any ideas/advice would be appreciated? Anyway, I’m thrilled to have found this sword in a pile of unrecognized junk on Craigslist! Thanks for your time. Attached Images

29th December 2018, 10:21 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	It is hard to say with certainty with basket hilts whether English or Scottish as these denominators were pretty transcendent in these times and regions, but most characteristics suggest it is made by Scottish artisans. It is most certainly, as typical, a Solingen blade. The cross and orb coupled with the 'anchor' is atypical but commonly placed as here at the fuller terminus as far as I have seen on most blades of this time period. This does seem a 17th century blade, and the hilt latter 17th-early 18th. The arms of the saltires entering the pommel is characteristic of Scottish hilt making, and makers in the garrison centers often produced for Highland units in the British army, but there are features which suggest profound Scottish symbolism such as the heart and especially the scallop shell....which if I recall had Jacobite associations. This was a relatively rarely seen symbol for the Spanish allies to the Jacobite cause. Without going into notes and research, my inclination is toward a very Scottish basket hilt of at early 18th c. and most probably from border or lowland regions during the risings. It must be remembered that the distinctions between opposing sides were not truly delineated between Highland and Lowland; Scottish or English nor Jacobite against Government..so such classification is at this stage improbable. This is a FANTASTIC piece!!! and Bakerbarang, I cannot thank you enough for sharing it here...….and I envy your fortitude in taking a chance on what is truly an amazing find! Congratulations! This is a truly valuable find. I am hoping that the 'real' experts here like Cathey and Eljay might come in with their views, but in the meantime I add what I can based on what I can recall of previous researches. PS. Personally I would avoid restoration beyond stabilizing any active corrosion, I have a ribbon hilt intact like this but the grip gone, and of the same period c.1690s, or earlier. I like its static condition as it to me represents history incarnate, and is rustically beautiful. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 29th December 2018 at 10:34 PM.

30th December 2018, 06:57 AM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Scottish Sword? Hi Bakerbarang I can honestly say I have not seen one of these before. You are correct in that it does closely resemble the one featured on Page 62 of MAZANSKY Cyril British Basket-hilted Swords. I have not seen this pear shaped pommel with a hilt featuring this degree of decoration before on a sword of this age. Would you mind posting more pictures, particularly the entire sword and blade and some dimensions, ie, blade width length etc. I will go back though my data base and see what I can find. Also have you tried to flex the blade or is it stiff. Cheers Cathey

29th December 2018, 03:53 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum Baker ... I am not the indicated person to enlighten you on your sword but, being a fan of marks, let me ask you if you have tried to decipher what that mark on the blade is about ?

29th December 2018, 06:42 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	Nice catch! I too got a great catch from Craigs list long ago. Anyway, though your piece is truly old, it is an English and not Scottish basket hilt. The symbols? - I'll leave that to others.

30th December 2018, 09:31 AM	#6
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	This nice sword got posted on MyArmoury a couple of days ago. My initial response is below. You found that on Craigslist!!?? If I wasn't in Thailand I'd pay more attention to CL ads! Nice sword! At any rate, my initial thought is English, very late 1500s/early 1600s (assuming that someone hasn't done an absolutely great job of forgery on the basket). There are a number of English characteristics on the hilt that are similar to other hilts of the period, like the quillons, which are actually fairly long, but bent back upon themselves. The main item that would make me think Scottish is the pommel; it has rectangular slots to receive the ends of the hilt, which, as far as I know, may be an indicator of Scots manufacture. The little "langets" at the blade shoulder is also something that hints at Scotland. Interestingly, look at the crude, undecorated, though nicely shaped, pommel and the rather nice workmanship on the basket. And yet everything appears to have a similar amount of pitting, and the pommel shape is certainly consistent with the early 1600s. So I guess my vote is English, as per paragraph 2 above. That is not a dogmatic statement, though: feel free to sway me to Scotland with evidence! By the way, how long is the blade? --ElJay

30th December 2018, 04:57 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thanks very much Eljay! I would not have imagined this hilt being that early! I agree though, there are very English factors but the pommel attachment method rings Scottish. Also, the scallop shell ornament, any thoughts? Very Spanish.....not something often seen in English use as far as I have known. Cathey looking forward to your results!! Your data base is phenomenal !!!