"Elephant" Keris

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

However I don't know whether the number of luks of the blades with this motif has any significance or not.

Well, i would image that the number of luks generally carried some significance and that significance probably varies dependent upon the time period of the blade's origin. I have just never seen any of these laid out for any given era in any convincing manner. But why choose a particular number of luk for your keris if the number has no significance.

[A. G. Maisey]

Bill, you have invited comment on this keris.

Are you able to be more precise in respect of the information you would like to receive?

The motif in the sorsoran might be able to be understood as a flying elephant, how that might be able to be interpreted might be able to be associated with a Javanese cult, the talismanic qualities that the motif is believed to incorporate could depend upon how it is interpreted.

The name of the motif is manglar mongo (also manglar munga --- and several other spelling variations which can mean different things); the language can be read as Javanese, but it might be Kawi or corrupted Kawi. Over the years several native speakers of Javanese have given me a number of different meanings, and those meanings have varied, depending upon how they felt at the time.

As for the matter of luk meanings, it might be best not to go there, if we wish to finish this thread before Christmas 2019.

EDIT

I have just finished a telephone conversation with the most accomplished native speaker of Javanese with whom I am acquainted. He assures me that the words "manglar monga" and all variations in spelling thereof make no sense to him, however, in light of the fact that wings are involved, he has suggested that "manglar" should understood as being associated with wings, thus it should be understood as "mang + lar" = "to have grown wings".

His guess is that manga/munga/mongo/ & etc, etc, etc could be dialect or a different language entirely, possibly a language from Sulawesi or Sumatera, or even a level of Javanese that he does not use (he uses the normal four levels of Javanese when speaking Javanese).

So, looking at the motif of an elephant with wings, maybe one day we'll find out that for somebody, somewhere "munga" means elephant.

FURTHER EDIT

On the other hand, maybe this motif should not be referred to as "manglar mongo" at all, maybe it should be taken as "liman lar":- liman = elephant, lar = wings, liman lar is a legitimate motif, mostly in Madura keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As for the matter of luk meanings, it might be best not to go there, if we wish to finish this thread before Christmas 2019.

Well that's the nice thing about internet forums. A thread doesn't need to end this Christmas, next Christmas or ever for that matter. And we can walk away and come back to the subject again and again whenever there is more to say or share. Nothing really good comes quickly or easily.

[A. G. Maisey]

True David, true, but I think Ill stay out of luk discussion.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

True David, true, but I think Ill stay out of luk discussion.

That is a shame. I was hoping that you might have some of the more interesting things to say on the subject.

[Bill M]

Alan, thank you as always for your insightful remarks. I am learning and having a great time.

Looking forward to your comments on "Luks". I have read that the number of luks are important numerology to the Javanese?

So I have been questioned that I ask questions that are not relevant, so I am moving slowly and digesting.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

I assume you may have missed this paper from Alan during your forum abstinence; recommended reading for sure:
http://kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE1.html

If this results in even more questions, I guess we can coax Alan into giving some more comments later...

Regards,
Kai