warangka for identification

[David]

Thanks for the update Gustav. I'm i to understand that this keris is now yours?
I look forward to your further thoughts on this. As with you i also see a strong possibility for a Sumatran blade for the very same indicators that you point out and the very similar greneng to the blade that i posted earlier. Mine is also fairly long at 41.275cm (16.25 inches).

[Jean]

The blade size, peculiar style of greneng, and tikel alis going thru the gandik point to Java North Coast IMO. From my (limited) experience the South Sumatran blades generally do not exceed about 37 cm long.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

The blade size, peculiar style of greneng, and tikel alis going thru the gandik point to Java North Coast IMO. From my (limited) experience the South Sumatran blades generally do not exceed about 37 cm long.
Regards

Well then, what do you think of my blade then? Over 41cm long, same greneng and tikel alis treatment. It has been dressed in what i have presumed was Sumatran dress for a very long time in a sheath that was most obviously made for the blade. I do know that some North Jawa figural hilts are sometimes confused with North Jawa, but the carving style on this looks more Sumatran to my eye and the selut as well. The shape of the sheath has alway seemed in a Sumatran style as well, but maybe if we can attach this form to North Jawa it might explain all the confusion over the original sheath presented here as well as my own. However, another of far greater knowledge than i also IDed this one as "typical Palembang" some years ago.
Please forgive this really bad cellphone photo taken in poor light, but when i looked it seems that i had neglected to take any over all photos of the dress on this keris.

[Gustav]

David, at the moment it's in my hands.

Jean, as David already wrote, such Tikel Alis and similar elongated Greneng can be seen on S-Sumatra blades. S-Sumatra blades tend to be smaller, but I know of some quite large specimens.

What is absolutely out of norm for S-Sumatra on the initial blade is the Mboto Rubuh Blumbangan.

As you can see, the edges ant the tip of the blade have been cleaned and treated with warangan. This must have happened already a while ago.

[Gustav]

more pics.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, what you have shown in this image I would call "typically Palembang" I wouldn't even think twice, or go looking for other possibilities, to me, this is Palembang.

However, when we begin to talk about blades, I need to think more than twice.

What I know is this:-

1) Palembang made keris blades vary across a wide range of styles; there is no uniquely Palembang style of blade.

2) Many Palembang keris used and use blades that originated in other localities.

3) Palembang was/is all about trade, people from all over the region moved and move in and out all the time

4) Javanese style blades that are larger than the Javanese blades that are customary in Central Jawa and East Jawa can usually be associated with North Coast and West Jawa, or with Lombok.

5) A gentle curve in the face of a gandhik is usually associated with West Jawa

6) A "brick laying down " (boto rubuh, elongated horizontally) blumbangan is associated with West Jawa and in a lesser degree, North Coast Jawa

7) The top of a gonjo needs to be able to conform to the type of dress that is common in the location where the keris was made, or where the gonjo was replaced

8) Overall blade style tends to be more or less related in any geographic location

9) Style and execution of detail in a blade can and does vary according to individual makers, variation is greatest at lower levels of quality.


The above are things I know to be true. I'm not guessing, I'm not floating possibilities. These things are things that I have been taught to be matters of fact, and that my own experience has verified.

If I use the above as a foundation for any opinion I may form, I am left with several possibilities and it becomes very difficult to use any one of those possibilities as a definite, supportable opinion based upon a photograph.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, what you have shown in this image I would call "typically Palembang" I wouldn't even think twice, or go looking for other possibilities, to me, this is Palembang.

Understood Alan. Here are more images of my blade then. I suppose what i am trying to establish are whether the two points Jean made are necessarily true for discounting my keris as Sumatran in origin.
1. that Sumatran keris are generally not over 37cm.
2. that the tikel alis is a sign that the keris may be North Coast Jawa.
Both my keris and the keris now in Gustav's care seem to carry these two traits. Does it discount a Sumatran origin?
You have added some other indicators that might place a keris in either North Coast Jawa or West Java.
1. I can see what might be a gentle curve in the gandik in the OP keris. Mine might also, though if it does the curve is even more subtle.
2. I am uncertain about boto rubuh in my case, though it certainly does not seem to be a standing brick.
So here are the rest of the photos of my keris. I see many similarities stylistically to the OP keris, but this, of course, does not necessarily mean they are of the same geographical origin.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, the points that I listed were not intended as indicators, but rather as "anti-indicators".

What I was trying to say was that these are things that I understand as being inarguably true, and that if I accept them as inarguably true, then it becomes pretty close to impossible for me to form an opinion in respect of Gustav's blade from only a picture.

I would consider your blade as having that slight curve in the face of the gandhik.

Is your blumbangan horizontally elongated? I am unable to form an opinion.

If I were to be shown a photo of a section of blade and asked where the blade might have come from, based on only the nature of the pamor, I think I would probably say East Jawa.

Show me only the gandhik I would say West Jawa to North Coast.

Blumbangan only, West Jawa to North Coast.

Greneng, anywhere across Jawa.

The tikel alis is what in Central Jawa is known as an old style tikel alis, not related to a geographic location, but related to period in time.

Jean's 37mm parameter is not one that I can have an opinion upon either one way or the other, I have never seen a sufficient number of keris blades that were definitely of Sumatran manufacture to be able to establish any sort of length parameter.

Your keris and Gustav's keris look very similar in the photos, neither keris appears to be particularly old, they are both in dress that in your case looks definitely Palembang, in Gustav's case it seems as if it could be Palembang. Two very similar keris, both in dress that seems to be able to be related to the same area? I don't know what I am looking at. I could come up with several hypotheticals, but I'm not going to do that because in my mind these constructed explanations really serve no purpose except to confuse.

Based upon what I believe I can see in these photographs I am unable to provide a supportable opinion on the origin of either of these blades, there are too many unknowns.

As a complete keris there can be no doubt that your keris is Palembang, but knowing what we do about the blades used in Palembang keris, is it possible to be certain that either your blade or Gustav's were actually made in Palembang?

[Jean]

Thank you David for showing us the full blade.... Its overall shape (angle of the ganja especially) looks different from the typical long blades from Java North Coast.
I attach the pic of a Palembang kris with a rather similar blade but only 25 cm long.
Regards

[kai]

Hello David,

However, another of far greater knowledge than i also IDed this one as "typical Palembang" some years ago.

The dress of your Keris certainly is Palembang/Lampung. However, the dress seems fairly recent to me, probably quite a bit younger than the blade. Thus, we probably have to focus on the blade only; considering the differences with Gustav's blade though, I kinda doubt that it will bear much on placing the latter.

Anyway, it is certainly interesting to drive home the notion that a really wide variety of blades can be found in South Sumatran dress. Aside from the obviously strong influence of Mataram style on many blades, one also might expect quite a bit of carry-over from western Java (or Sunda-influenced regions in general).

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

The dress of your Keris certainly is Palembang/Lampung. However, the dress seems fairly recent to me, probably quite a bit younger than the blade. Thus, we probably have to focus on the blade only; considering the differences with Gustav's blade though, I kinda doubt that it will bear much on placing the latter.

Yes Kai, the dress is obviously later than the blade, which is probably the case with most keris that come up for discussion.
To be clear, the reason that i posted my own keris for comparison was to draw Jean's two assertions into question.
1. that sumatran keris are generally not larger than 37cm.
2. that the tikel alis passing into the gandik is more a North Coast trait.
These are traits that both my keris and Gustav's share as well as a very similar arrangement in the greneng and a flat, squared off buntut urang. Certainly there are many differences between my keris and Gustav's and given that Sumatran keris were greatly influenced by keris from Jawa i was not necessarily trying to develop a thesis to prove the origins of both. What i did what to know was if Jean's assertion held to greater scrutiny and if what he was saying discounted Sumatra as the origin of my own keris. Given what has been presented i feel quite comfortable continuing to identify my keris was Sumatran. Gustav's keris presents some other more difficult traits which perhaps makes it harder to be so definitive.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

1. that sumatran keris are generally not larger than 37mm.

Gosh, I did not say that
And after seeing the pic of the whole blade, I agree that it is probably from South Sumatra.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

The blade size, peculiar style of greneng, and tikel alis going thru the gandik point to Java North Coast IMO. From my (limited) experience the South Sumatran blades generally do not exceed about 37 cm long.

Sorry Jean, you said Sumatran keris generally don't exceed 37 CM.
A slip of the keys for someone raised with inches. I did indeed mean centimeters and will correct the post in question.
But MAN, now that i'm living in Canada i will need to be more careful with my metric system! LOL!
And thank you for further confirmation.

[A. G. Maisey]

When we set out to classify a keris blade in terms of its point of origin in either time, or as a geographic location we are getting involved in playing the Tangguh Game. By its very nature, tangguh is opinion, and an opinion in respect of anything at all is formed on the basis of both personal knowledge, gained through experience, and/or generally accepted beliefs which may or may not be fact.

I first heard of tangguh in the 1970's, and in 1974 I had my first lesson in tangguh from a gentleman who was introduced to me as Romo Murdo, he was identified as the person responsible for the maintenance of the tosan aji kept in the Jogjakarta Kraton. I had more lessons from a neighbour of Romo Murdo's whose name was Asikin.

It was 1982 before I received any more solid, dedicated instruction in how to understand tangguh, and that instruction came from Empu Suparman, who continued to teach me until his passing in 1995.

In addition to that which I learnt from these gentlemen I also learnt much about tangguh from Pande Seni Keris Mpu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, who was a good friend from 1974.

My knowledge of tangguh and its application was added to by continuing contact with many other Javanese people who were, and still are, involved with the World of the Keris.

Over time I have formed the opinion that classification of a keris blade in accordance with the parameters of tangguh is totally Jawacentric. It arose because of a social need, and anything that did not contribute to that social need was of no interest to the people who used the tangguh parameters to classify a keris. Thus, keris from places other than Jawa were consistently dismissed as being of little interest or value.

However, in spite of this lack of interest in Jawa for keris that were regarded as "not really keris", tangguh does allow for classification of some keris blades based upon broad geographic area, thus we can classify Bugis, or keris from the Eastern Islands, or keris from the Peninsula. But when it comes to keris from Sumatera, it is as if that island in its entirety is a black hole.

I have never met any person who is regarded as an expert in the culture of the keris who was prepared to designate any particular keris style as being unique to any particular part of Sumatera.

Admittedly, this has changed a little in recent years, and I have been told, but have not personally experienced, that some high level dealers and their accomplices in Jakarta and Surabaya have now established indicators for Tangguh Palembang. I rather suspect that this new knowledge could be commercially driven --- but then, I do admit to being a sceptic.

Palembang has had a continuing political association with other places in S.E.Asia, especially with Central Jawa. This association with Central Jawa dates back to the Pajang era in Jawa when the Palembang Sultanate was controlled by Pajang. In the first quarter of the 19th century the Palembang Sultanate was wiped out by the Dutch, and they established direct rule, so from around 1820 or so there has been no royal guiding influence in Palembang. This lack of an overall societal and cultural guide has resulted in Palembang becoming a trade orientated centre, rather than a culturally orientated centre.

In the way in which the keris is understood in Jawa, this makes the keris from Palembang below consideration as a cultural icon. It is not, and has not been for a very long time something that possesses a similar nature or value to the Javanese keris. The keris from Palembang have no distinctive style that can be identified as being uniquely associated with Palembang.

This is certainly a Javanese attitude, and it may well be at variance with the attitude of the people of Palembang, but the fact remains that the variation in keris blades that can be found in Palembang dress does verify that there is very little consistency in what can be regarded as a keris that has a high probability of having been made in the area of influence of Palembang.

Consider the most famous of all Palembang keris, Si Ginjei, this keris is attributed to Empu Kinom of Mataram. There was some discussion of this keris in this Forum a few years back.

What I was taught, and what my own experience has verified, is that the lack of consistency in keris which supposedly originate from Sumatera, and especially from Palembang, makes it impossible to support a tangguh classification of Palembang, or of any other place in Sumatera, based upon indicators that have more or less definite parameters.

Palembang keris dress we can identify with a high probability of accuracy.

Palembang - made keris blades are not subject to probability, but only to possibility.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have never met any person who is regarded as an expert in the culture of the keris who was prepared to designate any particular keris style as being unique to any particular part of Sumatera.


What I was taught, and what my own experience has verified, is that the lack of consistency in keris which supposedly originate from Sumatera, and especially from Palembang, makes it impossible to support a tangguh classification of Palembang, or of any other place in Sumatera, based upon indicators that have more or less definite parameters.

Hello Alan,
I agree that the tangguh system is completely irrelevant for the krisses originating from elsewhere than Java and arguably Madura and Bali.
IMO there are some Sumatra kris blades which are specific to some regions such as the short 3 waves krisses from Minangkabau, and the bahari and panjang krisses from Riau. However the bahari and panjang blades are also fitted with other types of scabbards, especially Minang.
I agree that the kris blades from Palembang exist under various types but the style shown in posts # 21, 23, 24, and 30 seems to be very consistent and probably specific to Palembang or South Sumatra IMO.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, with the utmost respect I would like to make the point that you are thinking and writing as a collector who is using a perspective that I was taught had very little value in the appraisal of the keris.

This Forum is an English language Forum, and the values and attitudes of the contributors to discussion here are firmly based in the collecting traditions of Western European culture.

I believe that you are aware that I take only passing interest in keris that originate from outside the Jawa-Bali nexus, I have solid reasons for this rather focused approach and because I do not wish to offend anybody, and I would like to continue to participate in discussion in this Forum, I will reserve my response to the points that you have made.

[Gustav]

There was another Keris auctioned last week, with some corresponding features - generally the same style sheath, talismanic inlays on Gonjo of similar kind.

A Yaksha/Rakshasa hilt with some unusual/individual features.

The interesting thing about it - it was brought to England by James Alms (1728 - 1791), officer of the Royal Navy, possibly at latest 1784.