iron cuirass

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Kubur

mmmm do you expect an exact replica done by Africans South of the Sahara, more than 1000 years after the end of the Roman Empire?

It's well accepted that tabouka and kaskara are African weapons inspired by Medieval swords... But we don't have any proof...

It's the same with the cuirass, it'll be very difficult to prove that they are not or they are inspired by Roman armour...

The difference is we can make a case for the "when" and the "how" for the kaskara and the takouba taking influence from Mamluk and outside sources includes details of trade routes, political and trade contact between states, physical trips by African monarchs through Egypt etc. The same for lifida armour, the horses used by the local cavalries etc.

The problem I have with making any connection to Roman armour is that the Kanuri and Kanembu peoples who made up the Bornu empire were geographically and in terms of a timeline far removed from any Roman presence in North Africa. Otherwise any assumed Roman influence is merely a case of seeing a rough visual similarity, an argument no stronger than the Victorian assumption the kaskara was derived from the swords of Crusaders or that certain forms of daggers and swords seen in Cameroon are derived from the Celts...

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Iain

The difference is we can make a case for the "when" and the "how" for the kaskara and the takouba taking influence from Mamluk and outside sources includes details of trade routes, political and trade contact between states, physical trips by African monarchs through Egypt etc. The same for lifida armour, the horses used by the local cavalries etc.

The problem I have with making any connection to Roman armour is that the Kanuri and Kanembu peoples who made up the Bornu empire were geographically and in terms of a timeline far removed from any Roman presence in North Africa. Otherwise any assumed Roman influence is merely a case of seeing a rough visual similarity, an argument no stronger than the Victorian assumption the kaskara was derived from the swords of Crusaders or that certain forms of daggers and swords seen in Cameroon are derived from the Celts...

The Celts and the Vikings....never

The Romans, it's another story...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

APOLOGIES AS IM STUCK ON CAPITALS HERE... PLEASE SEE https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ro...western_Africa WHERE A DESCRIPTION OF ROMAN ACTIVITY ACROSS THE ABOVE MAP IS CONSIDERED. THE ROMANS WERE VERY ACTIVE IN THE 1ST T0 4THC. AD … NOT TO MENTION THEIR ACTIVITY IN YEMEN WHERE THEY WERE FOLLOWING THE FRANKINCENCE TRAIL AT THE SAME TIME.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Kubur

The Celts and the Vikings....never

The Romans, it's another story...

Hi Kubur, I'm aware of these expeditions and they of course do offer fascinating possibilities. However, I still find the difference in construction and form of the cuirass to be quite different from a 1st century AD Roman armour, particularly in terms of how it fastens at the side, the riveting etc. Obviously if there was a connection one could expect changes over time, but I am a natural skeptic.

But who knows, perhaps archaeological work in the region will turn something up one of these days. Given the relationship with Ethiopians and even the presence of Ethiopians in Roman ranks, it would be interesting to see anything similar in those regions.

In any case its fun to speculate but I'm unaware of any archaeological evidence yet found for a Roman presence in the Lake Chad area. So, an intriguing possibility but given the general panoply of Bornu arms shows direct Mamluk influence it would be an odd holdover.

[Edster]

Iain,

Nice job on "resurrecting" your cuirass. Well done. Yours looks more native made that some of the other examples. The others appear of very similar design and to be made from thin rolled steel plates of uniform thickness and width. Also the rivets are mostly uniform. This suggests that they were made in a workshop using imported materials of the late 19th century.

How heavy is the item? The entire outfit of various dublets, chain mail, padded armour, plus the cuirass must have been very heavy. Robinson (1929) says that the Fung mounted bodyguards of the 1760s, as well as Darfurian cavalry, trained their war horses to kneel like a camel to allow the warriors to get aboard in full armour. He didn't mention that a cuirass was part of the outfit although he mentioned they were "clad in metal armour".

Also, I read somewhere that the pagan tribes of Darfur threw throwing-irons like on one of the posted images to try and unhorse the knights as they were virturally helpless once on the ground.

Best regards,
Ed

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Edster

Iain,

Nice job on "resurrecting" your cuirass. Well done. Yours looks more native made that some of the other examples. The others appear of very similar design and to be made from thin rolled steel plates of uniform thickness and width. Also the rivets are mostly uniform. This suggests that they were made in a workshop using imported materials of the late 19th century.

How heavy is the item? The entire outfit of various dublets, chain mail, padded armour, plus the cuirass must have been very heavy. Robinson (1929) says that the Fung mounted bodyguards of the 1760s, as well as Darfurian cavalry, trained their war horses to kneel like a camel to allow the warriors to get aboard in full armour. He didn't mention that a cuirass was part of the outfit although he mentioned they were "clad in metal armour".

Also, I read somewhere that the pagan tribes of Darfur threw throwing-irons like on one of the posted images to try and unhorse the knights as they were virturally helpless once on the ground.

Best regards,
Ed

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the kind words, it does appear to have a good deal of age, hammer marks, and has been through a lot.

Weight, I haven't had a chance to get it on a scale, I'd say a few kilos. Not particularly heavy. I think the quilted lifida contribute a bulk of the weight.