Scottish Dirk Late 18th Century

Kmaddock · 9th December 2018, 04:34 PM

I am unsure about fixing crack
If mine I would leave alone,
if I had to do a repair as in it is likely to break apart if it was picked up roughly I would use silver solder rather than braze as it is easier to work with and will tarnish to look less obtrusive
Lovely item though
Well done

Ken

Battara · 9th December 2018, 08:52 PM

Some good and helpful points Ken, thank you.

I’ll leave it alone for now, but need be in the future, I’ll use very hard silver solder (had forgotten that one).

Jim McDougall · 15th December 2018, 06:32 AM

Still intrigued by this amazing dirk, I have been plowing through as many references as I can find. While enjoying the history of the Scottish clans and Jacobite myths etc. it is exciting to learn more on these topics with this dirk leading the way.

One reference I found was "The Scottish Dirk" (1975/1991) by James D. Forman, probably the foremost author I have found on the topic aside from John Wallace "Scottish Swords and Dirks" (1970).

As previously discussed, the character of this hilt seems to correspond to those of around mid 18th century 1750-60, and as noted the blade seems a cut down English military blade of much earlier.

In reading through the Forman article (p.19) there is a dirk of 1805-1820s with the odd canted stone pommel and very flat styling of the military sort of the 19th century. While clearly having nothing to do with the exceptional 18th century dirk we are looking at here.....it is noted as of the 78th Regiment of Foot......better known as ROSS-SHIRE BUFFS.

The unit was formed at Ft. George in July 1793 by Francis MacKenzie , and by 1794 was off to Holland for campaigns seeing action continually and into Napoleonic campaigns. Ft, George was built post 1746 near Inverness.
The MacKenzie clan is prevalent there and Ross Shire.

I am wondering if perhaps this might be our RB 2

The most unusual element of this dirk is the curious device or fixture on the pommel...the four posts surround with central capstan. The only example of dirk with a similar type of fixture on the pommel in this manner is in Stone (p.209, fig. 259, #1) and of 1700-20, which is far too early in its other features compared to the baluster style in the example posted. I have not found this pommel feature on any other examples in the material I have researched.

The closest thing I can find that resembles this kind of device is the famed Brooch of Lorn which has a stone at center and surrounded by posts with stones at top of each. Here I would note that the regions of Ross Shire extend to the outer Hebrides and Isle of Lewis. This brooch is related to Lords of the Isles from medieval times. While this is a tenuous suggestion it is interesting in the design in comparison.

Possibly this is an earlier dirk which has had the mounts later engraved to this unit and owner? It would be interesting to see if the National Army Museum in London might have rosters of this unit in this period (they were later in the 19th century joined with Seaforth Highanders (1881).

Hope this might be of some help establishing the important pedigree of this dirk.

Jim McDougall · 15th December 2018, 04:19 PM

More interesting notes 'historically' to the contexts possibly involving this dirk is some degree, as well as toward some observations concerning Culloden.
I have always thought that indeed there were considerable numbers of Scots in the ranks of the English forces (it must be noted that the term Scot was used broadly of course for Highlanders, Lowlanders and Islanders).

In "The Myth of the Jacobite Clans" by Murray Pittock (2009) on p,73, there are some interesting notes regarding the ranks of the Jacobites and those of the 'government.
The 'Black Watch' was mentioned (incidentally the term referred to dubh...Gaelic for black, dark, hidden, and that this unit was created after 1725 to patrol the Highland clans, often covertly, watching for subversive activity etc.).
It is noted that the Black Watch was so mistrusted that they were kept in the south of England, but a number seem to have joined the Jacobites anyway (p.73).

It is noted as well that "...the Jacobite cause consistently recruited more adherents in Scotland than the Whig governments.
Apparently among Lord Loudon's forces marching north, all the MacDonalds, MacLeods and MacKenzies deserted and joined the Highland army.
The author notes that "...desertions from the Jacobites to the government are hard to find. The evidence simply does not seem to be there to support the assertion that more Scots were in arms against the Jacobites than for them."(p.73).

Moving back to our dirk in discussion, it is interesting that Culloden took place near Inverness, the area of course that I have noted as that of the unit the inscription may refer to, as well as the founder, a MacKenzie. Perhaps nothing more than coincidental notes...........but it is the kind of thing that studying arms and history is all about.......possibilities.

It is still perplexing that this dirk has all the attributes of an earlier type, yet the inscribed markings are from a much later unit. In looking further into the style I found Charles Whitelaw's "Scottish Arms Makers" (1934 repr. 1977) there is in Appendix 3 his "Origin and Developmet of the Highland Dirk" (1908).
Figures 3 and 4 (p.312) are apparently regarded as the earliest types of dirk, with striking similarity to our example......and in #4 I found a remarkable instance resembling the fixture on our example, however instead of the four posts..."...the top of the pommel has four leaf shaped sinkings".

Such embellishents and designs are often found in Scottish weapons, and in many cases there are distinct symbolisms, however often their meanings have been lost. I recall trying to discover more on such symbolism and talking with Dr. Cyril Mazansky, who was writing his outstanding book "The British Basket Hilt Sword".He said he was focused on typology and was not particularly keen on symbolism.

It would be great to discover more on this curious fixture atop the pommel on this dirk, which seems to have been a very early appendage, and how thie dirk has seemingly become possibly involved so much later in a military setting.

Whitelaw (op.cit. p.313) also refers to the vigorous enforcement of the disarming acts after 1746, and that while weaponry was proscribed, the dirk was considered utilitarian in degree thus somewhat allowed. With this, many of the swords were cut down into dirks (and other tools). In the same plate discussed, fig. 6 has a blade noted as cut down in this manner and very much resembles the blade on our example.

Pukka Bundook · 16th December 2018, 02:28 PM

Jim,
Very interesting contributions from yourself. Just like we expect!
Whilst reading these, it was running through my mind how many times , and in different parts of the world, we see arms of the officer class often carried by several generations. An example would be the Japanese katana sometimes with a Very old blade, being carried in "working clothes" by officers in WW2. Indeed, expert "sniffers" were employed by well to do families after the war, to try to locate heirlooms lost along with the family member.
This dirk may well fit into this category, And fits entirely with an officer carrying an old family blade.

Jim,
If you want a link to the Grant Correspondence, I can send you one. It is quite an eye-opener regarding the 1695 (was it?) 1715 and '45 rebellions.

Best regards,
Richard.

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2018, 03:08 PM

Thank you Richard!!! and well observed on the heirloom weapons which transcended often many generations and often into many campaigns. It was that sort of pride and honor that men carried into battle, and charged their strength, courage and resolve.

In Scotland, such was profoundly the case, and while vast numbers of their beloved basket hilts were hidden away in thatch, many blades were cut down and placed in dirks. The dirk was typically overlooked in the proscriptions as it had viable purpose in utility use.

Good analogy on the Japanese swords after WWII, and there are many great examples of these heirloom Samurai blades in Showa period and military mounts. I recall speaking with one of the number of Japanese men who advertised and sought recovery of these blades taken at the end of WWII.
While these were regarded of course as souvenirs and war trophies, it was not realized that these blades were regarded quite literally as the virtual souls of the warriors who used them. I recall one instance where one Samurai blade was returned to the family from which it came and it was placed reverently in a small temple in that accord.

Pukka Bundook · 17th December 2018, 02:28 PM

A Very factual reply, Jim!
Yes, as officers supplied their own equipment, , old family accoutrements were very common.
If any of us were in this position, I think we would do Exactly the same, given the chance!
There is great comfort in a family piece, a tie to home, and at every viewing, a recall of the forbears, which could steady the nerves in times of uproar.
This would tie in very nicely with the common admonition; "Always remember who you are, and who you belong to".

Please pardon this if regarded as OT.

R.

15th December 2018, 06:32 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Still intrigued by this amazing dirk, I have been plowing through as many references as I can find. While enjoying the history of the Scottish clans and Jacobite myths etc. it is exciting to learn more on these topics with this dirk leading the way. One reference I found was "The Scottish Dirk" (1975/1991) by James D. Forman, probably the foremost author I have found on the topic aside from John Wallace "Scottish Swords and Dirks" (1970). As previously discussed, the character of this hilt seems to correspond to those of around mid 18th century 1750-60, and as noted the blade seems a cut down English military blade of much earlier. In reading through the Forman article (p.19) there is a dirk of 1805-1820s with the odd canted stone pommel and very flat styling of the military sort of the 19th century. While clearly having nothing to do with the exceptional 18th century dirk we are looking at here.....it is noted as of the 78th Regiment of Foot......better known as ROSS-SHIRE BUFFS. The unit was formed at Ft. George in July 1793 by Francis MacKenzie , and by 1794 was off to Holland for campaigns seeing action continually and into Napoleonic campaigns. Ft, George was built post 1746 near Inverness. The MacKenzie clan is prevalent there and Ross Shire. I am wondering if perhaps this might be our RB 2 The most unusual element of this dirk is the curious device or fixture on the pommel...the four posts surround with central capstan. The only example of dirk with a similar type of fixture on the pommel in this manner is in Stone (p.209, fig. 259, #1) and of 1700-20, which is far too early in its other features compared to the baluster style in the example posted. I have not found this pommel feature on any other examples in the material I have researched. The closest thing I can find that resembles this kind of device is the famed Brooch of Lorn which has a stone at center and surrounded by posts with stones at top of each. Here I would note that the regions of Ross Shire extend to the outer Hebrides and Isle of Lewis. This brooch is related to Lords of the Isles from medieval times. While this is a tenuous suggestion it is interesting in the design in comparison. Possibly this is an earlier dirk which has had the mounts later engraved to this unit and owner? It would be interesting to see if the National Army Museum in London might have rosters of this unit in this period (they were later in the 19th century joined with Seaforth Highanders (1881). Hope this might be of some help establishing the important pedigree of this dirk. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th December 2018 at 06:45 AM.

9th December 2018, 04:34 PM	#1
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	I am unsure about fixing crack If mine I would leave alone, if I had to do a repair as in it is likely to break apart if it was picked up roughly I would use silver solder rather than braze as it is easier to work with and will tarnish to look less obtrusive Lovely item though Well done Ken

9th December 2018, 08:52 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	Some good and helpful points Ken, thank you. I’ll leave it alone for now, but need be in the future, I’ll use very hard silver solder (had forgotten that one).

15th December 2018, 04:19 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	More interesting notes 'historically' to the contexts possibly involving this dirk is some degree, as well as toward some observations concerning Culloden. I have always thought that indeed there were considerable numbers of Scots in the ranks of the English forces (it must be noted that the term Scot was used broadly of course for Highlanders, Lowlanders and Islanders). In "The Myth of the Jacobite Clans" by Murray Pittock (2009) on p,73, there are some interesting notes regarding the ranks of the Jacobites and those of the 'government. The 'Black Watch' was mentioned (incidentally the term referred to dubh...Gaelic for black, dark, hidden, and that this unit was created after 1725 to patrol the Highland clans, often covertly, watching for subversive activity etc.). It is noted that the Black Watch was so mistrusted that they were kept in the south of England, but a number seem to have joined the Jacobites anyway (p.73). It is noted as well that "...the Jacobite cause consistently recruited more adherents in Scotland than the Whig governments. Apparently among Lord Loudon's forces marching north, all the MacDonalds, MacLeods and MacKenzies deserted and joined the Highland army. The author notes that "...desertions from the Jacobites to the government are hard to find. The evidence simply does not seem to be there to support the assertion that more Scots were in arms against the Jacobites than for them."(p.73). Moving back to our dirk in discussion, it is interesting that Culloden took place near Inverness, the area of course that I have noted as that of the unit the inscription may refer to, as well as the founder, a MacKenzie. Perhaps nothing more than coincidental notes...........but it is the kind of thing that studying arms and history is all about.......possibilities. It is still perplexing that this dirk has all the attributes of an earlier type, yet the inscribed markings are from a much later unit. In looking further into the style I found Charles Whitelaw's "Scottish Arms Makers" (1934 repr. 1977) there is in Appendix 3 his "Origin and Developmet of the Highland Dirk" (1908). Figures 3 and 4 (p.312) are apparently regarded as the earliest types of dirk, with striking similarity to our example......and in #4 I found a remarkable instance resembling the fixture on our example, however instead of the four posts..."...the top of the pommel has four leaf shaped sinkings". Such embellishents and designs are often found in Scottish weapons, and in many cases there are distinct symbolisms, however often their meanings have been lost. I recall trying to discover more on such symbolism and talking with Dr. Cyril Mazansky, who was writing his outstanding book "The British Basket Hilt Sword".He said he was focused on typology and was not particularly keen on symbolism. It would be great to discover more on this curious fixture atop the pommel on this dirk, which seems to have been a very early appendage, and how thie dirk has seemingly become possibly involved so much later in a military setting. Whitelaw (op.cit. p.313) also refers to the vigorous enforcement of the disarming acts after 1746, and that while weaponry was proscribed, the dirk was considered utilitarian in degree thus somewhat allowed. With this, many of the swords were cut down into dirks (and other tools). In the same plate discussed, fig. 6 has a blade noted as cut down in this manner and very much resembles the blade on our example.

16th December 2018, 02:28 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jim, Very interesting contributions from yourself. Just like we expect! Whilst reading these, it was running through my mind how many times , and in different parts of the world, we see arms of the officer class often carried by several generations. An example would be the Japanese katana sometimes with a Very old blade, being carried in "working clothes" by officers in WW2. Indeed, expert "sniffers" were employed by well to do families after the war, to try to locate heirlooms lost along with the family member. This dirk may well fit into this category, And fits entirely with an officer carrying an old family blade. Jim, If you want a link to the Grant Correspondence, I can send you one. It is quite an eye-opener regarding the 1695 (was it?) 1715 and '45 rebellions. Best regards, Richard.

16th December 2018, 03:08 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you Richard!!! and well observed on the heirloom weapons which transcended often many generations and often into many campaigns. It was that sort of pride and honor that men carried into battle, and charged their strength, courage and resolve. In Scotland, such was profoundly the case, and while vast numbers of their beloved basket hilts were hidden away in thatch, many blades were cut down and placed in dirks. The dirk was typically overlooked in the proscriptions as it had viable purpose in utility use. Good analogy on the Japanese swords after WWII, and there are many great examples of these heirloom Samurai blades in Showa period and military mounts. I recall speaking with one of the number of Japanese men who advertised and sought recovery of these blades taken at the end of WWII. While these were regarded of course as souvenirs and war trophies, it was not realized that these blades were regarded quite literally as the virtual souls of the warriors who used them. I recall one instance where one Samurai blade was returned to the family from which it came and it was placed reverently in a small temple in that accord.

17th December 2018, 02:28 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	A Very factual reply, Jim! Yes, as officers supplied their own equipment, , old family accoutrements were very common. If any of us were in this position, I think we would do Exactly the same, given the chance! There is great comfort in a family piece, a tie to home, and at every viewing, a recall of the forbears, which could steady the nerves in times of uproar. This would tie in very nicely with the common admonition; "Always remember who you are, and who you belong to". Please pardon this if regarded as OT. R.