Visayan barong?

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by ShazamsLaw

Hello Ian,



There has been a previous thread that talks about a kampilan potentially being Visayan, which is here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4469



There has also been depictions of Visayans using the kampilan in Filipino media such as the tv show: "amaya" and wondered how accurate that is in depicting ancient Visayans.
As someone who is passionate in uncovering artifacts that may have been lost during the pre-hispanic times, I always assumed that the lack of the Kampilan and kris is a result of Visayans being under Spanish colonization and not because they never made them.

Likewise, using the kris, armor and many other things have been abandoned during the era of the Spanish empire in favor of using the famous bolo
due to many Filipinos being farmers/workersof the land.
Its no completely unheard of to hear that Visayans imported long swords from foreign nations which is why I don't recall the Visayans choice of using mostly short swords a definite one.

Martial arts is a debatable topic as it is claimed by many that it is primarily hispanic in origin and is non-existent prior to colonization.



Sorry for the long post, but propagating the Visayans using the kampilan and not mostly just their knives or short swords doesn't exactly fit well for a people surrounded by other(s) use of longer blades. Especially that somehow a people such as the Thai or Moros are able to make and use them while the Visayans do not.

Hi,

To my knowledge, the Pulahanes, an esoteric group of rebels, primarily utilized the talibong, a crescent-shaped blade with an angled hilt and a belly that was thicker than the rest of the blade. According to the references I've read, the Pulahanes wrought havoc during the tail-end of the Spanish rule (1896 onwards, during the revolution triggered by Jose Rizal's death) and lasted until the American occupation (pre-WW2) in select areas such as Leyte and Cebu. This weapon came in various iterations, but to my knowledge, some of them were quite long (mine, a pre-WW2 variant, measures a total of 32 inches). Furthemore, there are also other long weapons- the Pinuti Lawihan, which was estimated to exist also during the 1900s in Bantayan, Cebu, can measure up to 38 inches total length. Meanwhile, in Panay Island, there have been samples of Tenegres found to be more than 32 inches in total length. It's safe to assume that even during the early part of the Spanish rule, Visayans had long blades endemic to their areas that were not outlawed by any weapons ban, nor did they forsake these in favor of the bolo.

While there have indeed been assertions that the kampilan was used in the Visayas, I think this is the exception rather than the rule, and that the Visayas didn't have its own version of the kampilan per se, rather they imported it. The kampilan, along with other BangsaMoro weapons such as barung, kris, and pira, required a warrior to be versed in Moro Fighting Arts (MFA), which is traditionally made up of Sulu Silat / Kuntau styles- and these are not taught to outsiders, these are passed on only to trusted friends and family members. These arts are wholly different from FMA, which, for the most part, comes from Visayan Eskrima. Many accomplished and high-ranked FMAers have injured themselves trying to wield antique or traditional (not custom nor fantasy-like like that of TFW's) versions of BangsaMoro weapons because they did not know how to properly wield it according to the ideal MFA protocols.

The use of kampilan by Visayans in "Amaya" cannot be trusted; mainstream TV is full of inaccuracies and generalizations; sadly, Filipinos are not that well-versed in fact research. In fact, even the use of kampilans by Lapu-Lapu's warriors during the Battle of Mactan is being hotly debated nowadays (ironically, even Lapu-Lapu's presence in the battle is being contested).

Finally, going back to TFW, the company is run by a man who claims to be a 'blade historian' but ignores historical and anthropological research that totally debunks a lot of his claims on Filipino blades. His smiths in the Philippines are based in Pozzurubio, Pangasinan, an area which is infamously known as the 'clone capital' of Philippine blades- the smiths there copy other regions' blades, but they are unable, of course, to replicate the finer details such as weight distribution, balance, specific length and aesthetics, etc. This is the same company that claimed there is a "Visayan Barong" (I assure you, there is absolutely none) as well as coined the silly term "Itak Tagalog" (Tagalogs call a wide variety of blades as 'itak', there is no one blade that is called as 'itak Tagalog', because 'itak' is a general term).

[Rick]

I'd also like to note that the first post in this thread is literally an advert for a commercial venture which is expressly against the rules of behavior in all discussion forums here.

[Ian]

Shazam,

Rick is right. I intended to bring this up earlier but got sidetracked. The Discussion Forums do not permit commercial advertising. I have edited your picture to remove the URL.

Ian

[Ian]

xasterix:

Thank you for your lengthy comment and familiarity with the longer weapons of the Visayan groups. While the vast majority of native Visayan weapons were on the shorter side, there were, as you correctly noted, some that were quite long. I agree completely about the need to be practised in using the weapons of your culture, and that the weapons of the Moro peoples may not be well suited to Visayan use.

Originally Posted by xasterix

... mainstream TV is full of inaccuracies and generalizations; sadly, Filipinos are not that well-versed in fact research. In fact, even the use of kampilans by Lapu-Lapu's warriors during the Battle of Mactan is being hotly debated nowadays (ironically, even Lapu-Lapu's presence in the battle is being contested).

Indeed, mainstream TV has much to answer for, and a lot of traditional stories are being re-examined more critically.

... [cloning] smiths in the Philippines are based in Pozzurubio, Pangasinan, an area which is infamously known as the 'clone capital' of Philippine blades- the smiths there copy other regions' blades, but they are unable, of course, to replicate the finer details such as weight distribution, balance, specific length and aesthetics, etc. ...

Your reference to Pagnasinan as a source for "cloned" blades is interesting. There is a substantial Ilokano presence in Pagnasinan--do you know if these smiths are mainly Ilokanos? Also, do you know if this center of smithing was active during the U.S. military presence in Central Luzon? For some time I have been trying to source the large numbers of knives and swords that were brought back by U.S. servicemen post WWII. Ilokano styles were prominent among those bringbacks.

Ian.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Ian

xasterix:

Thank you for your lengthy comment and familiarity with the longer weapons of the Visayan groups. While the vast majority of native Visayan weapons were on the shorter side, there were, as you correctly noted, some that were quite long. I agree completely about the need to be practised in using the weapons of your culture, and that the weapons of the Moro peoples may not be well suited to Visayan use.

Indeed, mainstream TV has much to answer for, and a lot of traditional stories are being re-examined more critically.

Your reference to Pagnasinan as a source for "cloned" blades is interesting. There is a substantial Ilokano presence in Pagnasinan--do you know if these smiths are mainly Ilokanos? Also, do you know if this center of smithing was active during the U.S. military presence in Central Luzon? For some time I have been trying to source the large numbers of knives and swords that were brought back by U.S. servicemen post WWII. Ilokano styles were prominent among those bringbacks.

Ian.

Greetings once again. Pozzurubio is a well-known blacksmithing town in Pangasinan, it's usually passed by on the way to Baguio. The smiths there initially gained fame by cloning European swords; when TFW started way back, the owner secured a deal with most of the smiths there. Nowadays, the blacksmithing town churns out 'cloned' European, Filipino traditional, and Japanese swords to various clients and middlemen. To my knowledge, they do not produce traditional Ilokano swords.

There is a town in Ilocos- Sta Maria- that was documented by Mr. Lorenz Lasco (migueldiaz in this forum) as still having master smiths capable of producing Ilokano traditional blades, even to the extent of reproducing antiques featured during the Ars Cives exhibit. I'll attach pics here, for your reference.

I have a pending order with one of those smiths; sadly, I've lost contact with the middleman (no answer the past couple of months), I hope to re-establish contact somehow.