Help to identifying a type of (British) sword

[Jim McDougall]

Now that I see the detail of the blade and hilt (beautifully photographed BTW!) I very much agree this is likely for a British officer of the Raj. Note the pavilion with flags and the cannon (I always think of the movie "The Far Pavilions" which was about the Raj).
Good point about the Star of Solomon at the forte, which indeed is seen on Wilkinson's swords in the same location as a proof slug surround, but this interpretation is not meant as a deception.
This symbol was primarily a symbol of strength and represents interlocking triangles (as I was told by Wilkinson-Latham years ago).
The use of this symbol is known in Muslim context very well, and is seen on some Arab swords, and here is likely placed similarly with plausibly Mughal connotation.

It seems that the reversed quillon terminals and guard may suggest an officers saber, perhaps an equerry, if I can recall Robson (which I don't have on hand at the moment).

That French scabbard is a find in itself, and with the values of these early French sabres would be most desirable to a collector looking for a match to one without scabbard (often bring backs from the field) .

Also, as I mentioned there were outfitters in India for military items and often specifically for officers. The deep relief scenes as seen on this blade recalls this style used on Indian tulwars and shamshir with scenes of the hunt and animals etc. and termed shikargh.

[Belgian1]

Hello and thank you Jim for these very interesting information. It is true that it would be nice if I finally bought the Robson.
But to return to this sword I also thought (but with much doubt) that it could be an officer of the Raj .... what you seem to confirm.
I hope to have soon the chance to see another sword like this one pass in front of me because this time I will have no hesitation .... ;-)

Have a nice day

[Hotspur]

It is a decorative reproduction. No proof plug and note that the triangles do not actually interlock, as a proper display of it would. These are two things that jump out but the deep blade etch another primary fault.
Likely Chinese made and fairly modern.

Cheers
GC

[TVV]

Am I the only one who sees an Afghan crest on this blade?

Teodor

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by TVV

Am I the only one who sees an Afghan crest on this blade?

Teodor

backwards

How about this "British" blade

[Jim McDougall]

BONK!!!!
Teodor….brilliant!!!! How did we miss that ?

That is indeed the Afghan state crest , the Mosque at Mazir I Sharif!

Afghanistan it is.

[Belgian1]

Waaaaw !!!!! Congratulations Teodor ;-)

Hi Theodor, congratulations for your discovery !!!!! :-) I think you changed a big question mark into a beautiful discovery :-)

Great !!!!!
Respect from Belgium ;-)

[Belgian1]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

BONK!!!!
Teodor….brilliant!!!! How did we miss that ?

That is indeed the Afghan state crest , the Mosque at Mazir I Sharif!

Afghanistan it is.

It's great your sharing of knowledge and your research. This is all "the essence" of an interesting Forum that is powered by interesting members. I congratulate you all for your constructive contributions.
Thanks and bravo once again !!!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Belgian1

It's great your sharing of knowledge and your research. This is all "the essence" of an interesting Forum that is powered by interesting members. I congratulate you all for your constructive contributions.
Thanks and bravo once again !!!

Thank you very much Belgian!

[Ian]

The Afghan attribution seems to be correct. This afternoon I was sent pictures of a similar sword by one of the many sword enthusiasts who come to this site anonymously. The sword has the mark of the Afghan armory as well, and shows similar deep chiseling along the blade. The pictures were sent to me with a note that this is a late 19th C. Afghan officer's sword.

Perhaps this thread might be better served in the Ethno Forum.



Ian.

[Hotspur]

Foot in mouth?

Enjoy
GC

The Emirate of Afghanistan 1823-1926
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...926%29.svg.png

most similar but still missing the middle flag
1901-1919 with cannon and swords
I still don't see it as true
The thing is that none higher would be a very Muslim thing and certainly, a flag would not be. Whatever.

[TVV]

GC,

I agree with you that this is not a European sword blade, and most definitely not a Wilkinson blade. The Afghans were very adept at making copies, there are articles on this forum explaining how they were able to reverse engineer Martinis and even Mauser C96s. The one thing they did not always get quite right were the European markings, as the craftsmen copying those simply did not understand them.

What I see here is an interesting Afghan military sword, made most likely in the early 20th century. To me this is an example of local craftsmanship and outside (in this particular instance British) influence in a time, when the Afghan army was transitioning and modernizing. A search in the ethnographic section will produce examples of the Mosque at Mazar-i-Sharif marking applied to traditional Afghan arms, if I remember correctly to denote that they belonged to the Khan's arsenal in Kabul.

Teodor

[Hotspur]

I agree with you that this is not a European sword blade

...................and sorry, I would not agree it is a native Afghani made sword. That opinion based on the elements I have outlined.

Cheers
GC

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by TVV

GC,

I agree with you that this is not a European sword blade, and most definitely not a Wilkinson blade. The Afghans were very adept at making copies, there are articles on this forum explaining how they were able to reverse engineer Martinis and even Mauser C96s. The one thing they did not always get quite right were the European markings, as the craftsmen copying those simply did not understand them.

What I see here is an interesting Afghan military sword, made most likely in the early 20th century. To me this is an example of local craftsmanship and outside (in this particular instance British) influence in a time, when the Afghan army was transitioning and modernizing. A search in the ethnographic section will produce examples of the Mosque at Mazar-i-Sharif marking applied to traditional Afghan arms, if I remember correctly to denote that they belonged to the Khan's arsenal in Kabul.

Teodor

Exactly!! Perfectly explained and 100% agree. The skills of the Afghans in arms production is astonishing.........and as noted, many arms are well made copies but the markings often are readily discernible as non authentic.

[Belgian1]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

It is a decorative reproduction. No proof plug and note that the triangles do not actually interlock, as a proper display of it would. These are two things that jump out but the deep blade etch another primary fault.
Likely Chinese made and fairly modern.

Cheers
GC

Good evening, Thank you for your intervention that has sufficiently attracted my attention for me to research the position of the star of "proof test".
Here is what I could find and I can assure you that these are authentic British swords from 1865 - 1905.
Photos 1: 1865-1875 Rifle Man Officer
Photo 2: Infantry Officer before 1892
Photo 3: Georges V WWI Period King
Photo 4: Royal Army Medical Officer 1905
Photo 5: Advertisement for British Thurkle swords in 1901

You see that the Chinese are not the only ones to place the "proof test" star against the edges of the blade or not centered. May be they were inspired by the excellent British manufacturers in the nineteenth century ;-)

Kind regards from Belgium

(Pictures are kept from the excellent web site: Easton Antique Arms and I thank him for his nice work)