warangka for identification

David · 11th November 2018, 01:52 AM

Just to add some more information into the mix here are some more complete photos of the ensemble.

A. G. Maisey · 11th November 2018, 03:35 AM

OK, here's a guess:- North Coast Jawa, Pekalongan, or thereabouts, probably for a Chinese gentleman --- that's if everything belongs together from day one.

Jean · 11th November 2018, 11:22 AM

The scabbard looks from South Sumatra to me in spite of the unusual carvings, but the blade & hilt from Java North Coast indeed.

Bjorn · 11th November 2018, 06:08 PM

The basic shape of the wrongko also strikes me as north coast.
If the other components are original to the ensemble, then the jejer decorated with megamundung would seem to point in the same direction.

David · 12th November 2018, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

OK, here's a guess:- North Coast Jawa, Pekalongan, or thereabouts, probably for a Chinese gentleman --- that's if everything belongs together from day one.

So Alan, is there no possibility that this might be a Sumatran blade. That was my initial impression given a keris i have from Sumatra with some fairly similar features.

A. G. Maisey · 12th November 2018, 10:37 PM

David, anything is possible.

What I have given is a guess, it is not intended to be a supportable opinion.

In the blade itself I can see certain indicators that suggest North Coast.

In the hilt there is a very clear North Coast motif that is usually associated with Pekalongan.

I'd like the wrongko in hand before I said too much, but what I think I can see is that it has the profile of the Tegal - North Coast - East Jawa ladrangan style, and it appears to have pointed tips to the top (godongan, angkup), carved enhancements such as are on this wrongko, are common in wrongkos from East Jawa, Madura.

I don't think I've seen a South Sumatera wrongko with pointed tips like on this one.

Madura styles influence the North Coast, I do not know these carved enhancements in South Sumatera --- they might exist, but I have not seen them --- additionally, Chinese gentlemen are known to not be averse to moving away from traditional style if they wish, they usually are not bound to kraton dictates or family mores, they do what they wish, Pekalongan is a decidedly Chinese influenced part of Jawa.

Another thing to bear in mind is the Javanese influence in keris style on South Sumatera, especially Palembang. Palembang wilahan sometimes look exactly like Javanese wilahan, and it is impossible to know if they were made in Palembang or in Jawa.

The above is the rationale behind my guess, and it is a guess, not an opinion, I could only give an opinion in this case if I had the keris in question in my hand, I'm not good enough to do it from photos on a computer screen.

David · 12th November 2018, 11:30 PM

Thanks Alan. I appreciate your answer, even if it is only a guess. But i was really only asking about the blade with the understanding that blades sometime end up in dress from other locations.

Gustav · 12th November 2018, 11:43 PM

In the blade there are also equally strong indicators that suggest Palembang.

Gambar is a Palembang form, Gandar with squarish tip is typical for South Sumatra/Palembang.

Strong Chinese community with influence on art also in Palembang, see lacquer work, furniture, but the cloud motif, as suggested, points to North coast Java (Cirebon).
The carvings on hilt and Gambar obviously correspond. There could be a possibility this being an original ensemble.

A. G. Maisey · 13th November 2018, 08:20 AM

Thanks for putting that pic up Gustav, yes, looking at that wrongko I'm seeing details that I have not previously seen on a South Sumatera keris. I think in light of that example I'd be quite happy to add South Sumatera to the guess basket.

However, as far as the blade goes, it is pretty much as I have already said, there are elements that suggest north coast Jawa, in fact, there can be no elements in the blade that suggest South Sumatera or Palembang, because there is no blade style that is unique to Palembang or South Sumatera. In Palembang, locally made blades copy blades from other areas, so we cannot really know if it originated in Palembang or if it came from somewhere else. In other words, tangguh Palembang does not exist --- even though some Jakarta dealers would like it to.

Regarding the motif, whilst it is true that the cloud motif originated in Cirebon actually dating from when Sunan Gunung Jati married Ratu Ong Tien (who was Chinese), the motif can be found in a number of other places too, and especially along the North Coast, in batik and in wood carving it varies a little bit wherever it is found, a batik expert can tell the differences, I cannot, but I do understand just a little bit about these motifs, and to my eye, the way in which this particular hilt motif is carved looks more like Pekalongan than Cirebon style. But I'm no expert, so I'm happy to settle for "North Coast".

Thanks again for the pic, where is it from?

EDIT

I'm going to float another guess now, again I emphasise, a guess, not an opinion.

If we look at this entire ensemble, there is one thing about it that really screams, its not nice, and that is the proportion of hilt to wrongko, its gawky, unbalanced, the hilt sits much too high, like an after thought, just plain horrible.

Maybe what we have is a keris along with hilt and wrongko that went from North Coast Jawa to South Sumatera, the wrongko was unsuitable for Palembang --- or wherever wear, so a new one was made, and the present selut was fitted to the hilt. This present selut is certainly identifiable as Palembang or South Sumatera.

My feeling remains Chinese involvement, and knowing the way Chinese businessmen moved (and move) around, that seems reasonable to me.

Gustav · 18th December 2018, 02:34 PM

A couple of pictures of this interesting ensemble will follow.

What led me thing about Palembang as possible origin of blade was the smallish Greneng with elongated Dha, sometimes found in S-Sumatra, the cutting edge stopping just before the first Greneng element (indicated by arrow), together with Odo-Odo running almost till the tip.

New updates for me:

- the blade is unexpectedly large - 45,5 cm, and could be older then I expected it to be. Gonjo is 10 cm long and 1,6 cm wide at Sirah Cecak.

- cutting edge stopping just before Greneng can be found also in West Java.

- there were two inserts at the mouth of Wrongko, one of which is lost. Nevertheless the Wrongko seems to be originally made for the blade. The Gandar isn't split and there is no hole at the bottom of it.

The hilt is a riddle for me, never have seen something similar on Keris, yet there are similarities in ornamentation with older Javanese Pedang hilts.

11th November 2018, 01:52 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,240	Just to add some more information into the mix here are some more complete photos of the ensemble. Attached Images

11th November 2018, 11:22 AM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The scabbard looks from South Sumatra to me in spite of the unusual carvings, but the blade & hilt from Java North Coast indeed. Last edited by Jean; 11th November 2018 at 05:24 PM.

12th November 2018, 11:43 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	In the blade there are also equally strong indicators that suggest Palembang. Gambar is a Palembang form, Gandar with squarish tip is typical for South Sumatra/Palembang. Strong Chinese community with influence on art also in Palembang, see lacquer work, furniture, but the cloud motif, as suggested, points to North coast Java (Cirebon). The carvings on hilt and Gambar obviously correspond. There could be a possibility this being an original ensemble. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 13th November 2018 at 12:20 AM.

13th November 2018, 08:20 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,063	Thanks for putting that pic up Gustav, yes, looking at that wrongko I'm seeing details that I have not previously seen on a South Sumatera keris. I think in light of that example I'd be quite happy to add South Sumatera to the guess basket. However, as far as the blade goes, it is pretty much as I have already said, there are elements that suggest north coast Jawa, in fact, there can be no elements in the blade that suggest South Sumatera or Palembang, because there is no blade style that is unique to Palembang or South Sumatera. In Palembang, locally made blades copy blades from other areas, so we cannot really know if it originated in Palembang or if it came from somewhere else. In other words, tangguh Palembang does not exist --- even though some Jakarta dealers would like it to. Regarding the motif, whilst it is true that the cloud motif originated in Cirebon actually dating from when Sunan Gunung Jati married Ratu Ong Tien (who was Chinese), the motif can be found in a number of other places too, and especially along the North Coast, in batik and in wood carving it varies a little bit wherever it is found, a batik expert can tell the differences, I cannot, but I do understand just a little bit about these motifs, and to my eye, the way in which this particular hilt motif is carved looks more like Pekalongan than Cirebon style. But I'm no expert, so I'm happy to settle for "North Coast". Thanks again for the pic, where is it from? EDIT I'm going to float another guess now, again I emphasise, a guess, not an opinion. If we look at this entire ensemble, there is one thing about it that really screams, its not nice, and that is the proportion of hilt to wrongko, its gawky, unbalanced, the hilt sits much too high, like an after thought, just plain horrible. Maybe what we have is a keris along with hilt and wrongko that went from North Coast Jawa to South Sumatera, the wrongko was unsuitable for Palembang --- or wherever wear, so a new one was made, and the present selut was fitted to the hilt. This present selut is certainly identifiable as Palembang or South Sumatera. My feeling remains Chinese involvement, and knowing the way Chinese businessmen moved (and move) around, that seems reasonable to me. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 13th November 2018 at 08:53 AM.

11th November 2018, 03:35 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,063	OK, here's a guess:- North Coast Jawa, Pekalongan, or thereabouts, probably for a Chinese gentleman --- that's if everything belongs together from day one.

11th November 2018, 06:08 PM	#4
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	The basic shape of the wrongko also strikes me as north coast. If the other components are original to the ensemble, then the jejer decorated with megamundung would seem to point in the same direction.

12th November 2018, 10:37 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,063	David, anything is possible. What I have given is a guess, it is not intended to be a supportable opinion. In the blade itself I can see certain indicators that suggest North Coast. In the hilt there is a very clear North Coast motif that is usually associated with Pekalongan. I'd like the wrongko in hand before I said too much, but what I think I can see is that it has the profile of the Tegal - North Coast - East Jawa ladrangan style, and it appears to have pointed tips to the top (godongan, angkup), carved enhancements such as are on this wrongko, are common in wrongkos from East Jawa, Madura. I don't think I've seen a South Sumatera wrongko with pointed tips like on this one. Madura styles influence the North Coast, I do not know these carved enhancements in South Sumatera --- they might exist, but I have not seen them --- additionally, Chinese gentlemen are known to not be averse to moving away from traditional style if they wish, they usually are not bound to kraton dictates or family mores, they do what they wish, Pekalongan is a decidedly Chinese influenced part of Jawa. Another thing to bear in mind is the Javanese influence in keris style on South Sumatera, especially Palembang. Palembang wilahan sometimes look exactly like Javanese wilahan, and it is impossible to know if they were made in Palembang or in Jawa. The above is the rationale behind my guess, and it is a guess, not an opinion, I could only give an opinion in this case if I had the keris in question in my hand, I'm not good enough to do it from photos on a computer screen.

12th November 2018, 11:30 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,240	Thanks Alan. I appreciate your answer, even if it is only a guess. But i was really only asking about the blade with the understanding that blades sometime end up in dress from other locations.

18th December 2018, 02:34 PM	#10
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	A couple of pictures of this interesting ensemble will follow. What led me thing about Palembang as possible origin of blade was the smallish Greneng with elongated Dha, sometimes found in S-Sumatra, the cutting edge stopping just before the first Greneng element (indicated by arrow), together with Odo-Odo running almost till the tip. New updates for me: - the blade is unexpectedly large - 45,5 cm, and could be older then I expected it to be. Gonjo is 10 cm long and 1,6 cm wide at Sirah Cecak. - cutting edge stopping just before Greneng can be found also in West Java. - there were two inserts at the mouth of Wrongko, one of which is lost. Nevertheless the Wrongko seems to be originally made for the blade. The Gandar isn't split and there is no hole at the bottom of it. The hilt is a riddle for me, never have seen something similar on Keris, yet there are similarities in ornamentation with older Javanese Pedang hilts.