Spanish Morocco Berber sword

TVV · 31st October 2018, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Plus I'm not denying these swords in Dominican republic, I'm saying that they were used with local Moroccan hilts and scabbards in Africa too...

Thank you for explaining, I think I understand your point now and agree with it. There is such a variety of blades on Moroccan saif (or nimcha, as we collectors like to call them for simplicity) that it appears that any decent blade would have been used and mounted according to local preference. The hilt is almost always the key to the attribution of ethnographic weapons, and as far as the hilts on these machetes are concerned, my conclusion based on the available information is that these hilts are Dominican, not Maghrebi.

Is it possible that some of these were shipped to Morocco and rehilted there? Yes, and hopefully one day someone will show a short sword with a motto in Spanish and a Moroccan hilt to confirm this.

Kubur · 21st January 2019, 03:22 PM

Another nice example of South Morocco Berber sword
The hilt follow Spanish mesoamerican traditions with a Spanish blade for export...

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2019, 05:32 PM

Another great example of these most interesting swords which we have discussed here so many times, and which appear to predominate in Cuba, Puerto Rico and the 'Spanish Main' to the Mexican coasts.
This example seems to have made it into the Spanish colonies in Morocco, just as the long disputed 'Berber sabres' of the OP.

These curious swords with the distinct 'finger stalls' and nocked pommel seem to have numerous variations, but the narrow blade and that 'squiggle' motif seem to occur almost characteristically on most. The one I obtained back in the 90s had a knuckleguard and shell guard much in the 'espada ancha' manner and was attributed to Monterrey, Mexico.

As I described in my post #10 (30 Oct 2018) I was researching these with Pierce Chamberlain ("Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821", 1972) back then, and others with focus on the Spanish Colonial aspects.
A number of years later, he contacted me and had found evidence of these being 'bring backs' from Spanish American war from Cuba.

After that Juan Calvo (2006) wrote his paper (op. cit. post #10) which described these as 'guanabacoa' apparently from the Cuban city near Havana . Clearly these diffused considerably through the Spanish Main and from Morocco to as far as the Philippines. I cannot see them as a functional weapon in most cases, but more as a ceremonial accoutrement.

While these, like the 'Berber sabres', were not indiginous to Morocco, they certainly occurred there, it seems mostly in the early years of the 20th century. As noted, Charles Buttin, in his thorough studies if ethnographic weapons, and after many years of residence in Morocco, never included either of these forms in his work.

Conversely, the also much discussed 'Zanzibar swords' (Demmin, 1877; Burton, 1884) he did note in his work (1933) and correct as actually s'boula daggers from Morocco.

Thank you for posting this Kubur!! Nice example!!

TVV · 21st January 2019, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Another nice example of South Morocco Berber sword
The hilt follow Spanish mesoamerican traditions with a Spanish blade for export...

I am just curious, what is the basis for the Moroccan attribution of this Spanish machete made for Spanish colonial forces? We know these were made in Spain and worn by Spanish officers in the Caribbean and the Philippines, see this post here:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...1&postcount=11

Was the example you posted specifically collected in Western Sahara with the appropriate provenance? If so, it would simply mean that a Spanish officer took one there, which is interesting but does not change much. To attribute it to Morocco as a native Berber weapon would be akin to stating that the Gras bayonet was a Berber weapon as well, because a few ended up in Berber hands from the French troops who were armed with the rifle.

Kubur · 21st January 2019, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

To attribute it to Morocco as a native Berber weapon would be akin to stating that the Gras bayonet was a Berber weapon as well, because a few ended up in Berber hands from the French troops who were armed with the rifle.

It's a very good example, yes many Moroccan sbula have Gras bayonet but they are Moroccan native weapons....with non native blades... Many koummiya have Spanish Toledo blades...
Most of the swords discussed on this forum are made with imported blades, Caucasus in India, English, French or Spanish in Morocco... Germans in Ethiopia... And i don't think that is a problem. It's very important to not see objects as black or white or to be stuborn...Natives did copies, natives reused Europeans blades all the times.
As you said it was very well demonstrated that these swords are Spanish colonial swords, but why to deny that these swords were used and copied in Morocco?

TVV · 21st January 2019, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

As you said it was very well demonstrated that these swords are Spanish colonial swords, but why to deny that these swords were used and copied in Morocco?

Because none of the parts of these machetes were made in Africa: hilts and blades were produced in Spain for use by Spanish colonial troops. An unmodified Gras bayonet is just that, a Gras bayonet.

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2019, 11:15 PM

I think the combining of 'foreign' blades in local style hilts in colonial regions is of course a common scenario, but personally I regard these 'incarnations' of weapons as i.e. ...a Moroccan s'boula with Gras bayonet blade etc. There were many versions of s'boula with other types of blades typically bayonets.

I suppose that there are those who might regard the example as a Gras bayonet with a s'boula hilt. I am not sure which would be more correct, but depending on the context of its provenance, in Morocco, it is to me a s'boula.
In a collection of French arms or in European context it could be a Gras bayonet with a s'boula hilt from Morocco.

With the input from Marc, who was most well informed on arms in Spain (and its colonies), there was production of these in the Toledo armory in the mid 19th c.....it seems their limited production might have included these kinds of arms.

From my perspective, it does not seem that arms which arrived in a location such as colonial Spanish Morocco would have been of forms which would have invited production of copies. From what I understand of the Rif War which ensued through the 1920s from continuous insurgence in years before by the Rif tribes, the Spanish forces were a hodgepodge of conscripts and troops from many places, including Cuba etc.
Descriptions of these campaigns note low morale and struggles among these troops and that they often bartered away materials including some arms, which seems a pretty constant source for these military arms throughout the Sahara.

In considering my comments about exclusion of these sword types by Buttin in his works, perhaps they were later there than his residence and study as these campaigns in which these might have arrived were in the 1920s.

fernando · 22nd January 2019, 02:25 PM

According to Calvó, two wo types of Machetes "Cubanos" could be established; one with a straight blade, regular thickness and length, with half cane fullers in its second third, and another with an inferior thickness and wider width, without fullers. According to Dr. Hector J. Meruelo (Miami) the first one was defined as "Guanabacoa", a village close to the Capital, today its suburb.
The second type was popularized later, during the 10 years war (1868-78), abounding the examples in which blades show German or North American marks, inscribed in the Spanish idiom, as destined to the Hispano market.
A type from Guanabacoa dated 1856 shows it was made in the Toledo factory.The production over there of machetes with wide (ancha) blade, for troops equipment, was initiated in 1991, with two models destined respectively to Infantry Officers and troopers.The first to be acquired by its users and the second as munitions grade, approved by Royal Order 9th January 1892 as "model 1891 for the Infantry of the Cuban Army"

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2019, 08:04 PM

Thank you Teodor for the link to that 2007 post by Marc (sure do miss his posts) who was in Barcelona. He had some great insights into Spanish and the colonial examples weapons.
My Spanish reading ability is pretty limited, but I got the impression in reading the Calvo text that these types of arms were 'de guanabacoa', not that it is relevant, I'm sure machetes Cubanos works as well.

Like the name or term thing, attribution or classification is always difficult as was well illustrated by the many years of debate over the 'Berber' sabre. Like this example of the OP, the variations of these were found as far as the Philippines, leading to the notion they were from there equally as the other suggestions.
On these guanabacoa(?) machete examples, I have even seen some of these posted in catalogs as Algerian!!!!????

As far as the example I have, the blade with similar markings and a knuckle guard added (stated from Monterrey. Mexico) is mostly akin to a barbeque tool, is rigid and like bar stock steel......it would not function as any sort of weapon except as a blunt force rod, let alone a machete. I do not know the character of the many other examples' blades, perhaps they are sharp.

The photos are I think from the Calvo article, but show the guard and 'shell' as on my example; the repeated pattern motif is similar to that on mine but I think the squiggle type.

Note the striations on the shell, resembling those of the espadas we have considered from South America with those same lines.
Also, it has always been curious that the notched indentation at the top of the hilt of these is effectively on the back rather than as a hand nock as found on nimchas as well as the South American espada,

21st January 2019, 03:22 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Another nice example of South Morocco Berber sword The hilt follow Spanish mesoamerican traditions with a Spanish blade for export... Attached Images

21st January 2019, 08:04 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	Thank you Teodor for the link to that 2007 post by Marc (sure do miss his posts) who was in Barcelona. He had some great insights into Spanish and the colonial examples weapons. My Spanish reading ability is pretty limited, but I got the impression in reading the Calvo text that these types of arms were 'de guanabacoa', not that it is relevant, I'm sure machetes Cubanos works as well. Like the name or term thing, attribution or classification is always difficult as was well illustrated by the many years of debate over the 'Berber' sabre. Like this example of the OP, the variations of these were found as far as the Philippines, leading to the notion they were from there equally as the other suggestions. On these guanabacoa(?) machete examples, I have even seen some of these posted in catalogs as Algerian!!!!???? As far as the example I have, the blade with similar markings and a knuckle guard added (stated from Monterrey. Mexico) is mostly akin to a barbeque tool, is rigid and like bar stock steel......it would not function as any sort of weapon except as a blunt force rod, let alone a machete. I do not know the character of the many other examples' blades, perhaps they are sharp. The photos are I think from the Calvo article, but show the guard and 'shell' as on my example; the repeated pattern motif is similar to that on mine but I think the squiggle type. Note the striations on the shell, resembling those of the espadas we have considered from South America with those same lines. Also, it has always been curious that the notched indentation at the top of the hilt of these is effectively on the back rather than as a hand nock as found on nimchas as well as the South American espada, Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 21st January 2019 at 08:22 PM.

21st January 2019, 05:32 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	Another great example of these most interesting swords which we have discussed here so many times, and which appear to predominate in Cuba, Puerto Rico and the 'Spanish Main' to the Mexican coasts. This example seems to have made it into the Spanish colonies in Morocco, just as the long disputed 'Berber sabres' of the OP. These curious swords with the distinct 'finger stalls' and nocked pommel seem to have numerous variations, but the narrow blade and that 'squiggle' motif seem to occur almost characteristically on most. The one I obtained back in the 90s had a knuckleguard and shell guard much in the 'espada ancha' manner and was attributed to Monterrey, Mexico. As I described in my post #10 (30 Oct 2018) I was researching these with Pierce Chamberlain ("Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821", 1972) back then, and others with focus on the Spanish Colonial aspects. A number of years later, he contacted me and had found evidence of these being 'bring backs' from Spanish American war from Cuba. After that Juan Calvo (2006) wrote his paper (op. cit. post #10) which described these as 'guanabacoa' apparently from the Cuban city near Havana . Clearly these diffused considerably through the Spanish Main and from Morocco to as far as the Philippines. I cannot see them as a functional weapon in most cases, but more as a ceremonial accoutrement. While these, like the 'Berber sabres', were not indiginous to Morocco, they certainly occurred there, it seems mostly in the early years of the 20th century. As noted, Charles Buttin, in his thorough studies if ethnographic weapons, and after many years of residence in Morocco, never included either of these forms in his work. Conversely, the also much discussed 'Zanzibar swords' (Demmin, 1877; Burton, 1884) he did note in his work (1933) and correct as actually s'boula daggers from Morocco. Thank you for posting this Kubur!! Nice example!!

21st January 2019, 11:15 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	I think the combining of 'foreign' blades in local style hilts in colonial regions is of course a common scenario, but personally I regard these 'incarnations' of weapons as i.e. ...a Moroccan s'boula with Gras bayonet blade etc. There were many versions of s'boula with other types of blades typically bayonets. I suppose that there are those who might regard the example as a Gras bayonet with a s'boula hilt. I am not sure which would be more correct, but depending on the context of its provenance, in Morocco, it is to me a s'boula. In a collection of French arms or in European context it could be a Gras bayonet with a s'boula hilt from Morocco. With the input from Marc, who was most well informed on arms in Spain (and its colonies), there was production of these in the Toledo armory in the mid 19th c.....it seems their limited production might have included these kinds of arms. From my perspective, it does not seem that arms which arrived in a location such as colonial Spanish Morocco would have been of forms which would have invited production of copies. From what I understand of the Rif War which ensued through the 1920s from continuous insurgence in years before by the Rif tribes, the Spanish forces were a hodgepodge of conscripts and troops from many places, including Cuba etc. Descriptions of these campaigns note low morale and struggles among these troops and that they often bartered away materials including some arms, which seems a pretty constant source for these military arms throughout the Sahara. In considering my comments about exclusion of these sword types by Buttin in his works, perhaps they were later there than his residence and study as these campaigns in which these might have arrived were in the 1920s.

22nd January 2019, 02:25 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	According to Calvó, two wo types of Machetes "Cubanos" could be established; one with a straight blade, regular thickness and length, with half cane fullers in its second third, and another with an inferior thickness and wider width, without fullers. According to Dr. Hector J. Meruelo (Miami) the first one was defined as "Guanabacoa", a village close to the Capital, today its suburb. The second type was popularized later, during the 10 years war (1868-78), abounding the examples in which blades show German or North American marks, inscribed in the Spanish idiom, as destined to the Hispano market. A type from Guanabacoa dated 1856 shows it was made in the Toledo factory.The production over there of machetes with wide (ancha) blade, for troops equipment, was initiated in 1991, with two models destined respectively to Infantry Officers and troopers.The first to be acquired by its users and the second as munitions grade, approved by Royal Order 9th January 1892 as "model 1891 for the Infantry of the Cuban Army"