Spanish Morocco Berber sword

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by TVV

Here is a link to a relatively long thread on these:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...6&page=1&pp=30

I understand that long threads can be somewhat tedious to read, so here is a summary of the relevant facts:
1. In post #56 you will see a machete in the Museo del Ejercito in Toledo, identified there as from the Dominican Republic.
2. Throughout the thread you will see that sometimes these machetes have inscriptions in Spanish, a few of which reference the Dominican Republic and one even a particular district within the Dominican Republic.

It is fun to speculate what may have happened within the Spanish colonial empire and Spanish sphere of cultural influence, but so far there has been no factual evidence of these machetes produced in the Maghreb, or even ever used there.

Indeed they can be tedious, especially when trying to capsulate material covered in well over a decade of discussions which is archived here. But what is impressive is the interactive material we have discussed in order to find facts in the queries toward these forms.
Most collectors look for the conclusions or concise and simple classifications, while some interested in serious study look for detailed compilations of data which often includes historical material etc. Such studies may include things not seen as relevant but in larger dimension give perspective.


Thank you for the synopsis which I should have added for the former.

[Kubur]

Here you have machetes, not the same blades, not the same length...
Plus I'm not denying these swords in Dominican republic, I'm saying that they were used with local Moroccan hilts and scabbards in Africa too...

[ariel]

These are modern European industrial machetes. I am not sure they can be regarded as proper comparisons.

[ariel]

It would be nice to have photographs of inhabitants of a defined country carrying old weapons of a particular design. Regretfully, such opportunities come very infrequently.


We are dealing with historical weapons and a good proportion of them went out of use before photography became available. Moreover, some localities were not easily reachable.


Take Afghani ch’huras, for example. Some people scoured the internet in search of photographs of mid-19 century Afghanis carrying ch’huras and found none.
Well, British military expeditions through the Khyber pass were highly risky enterprises and likely tended not to include photographers with their bulky equipment.

And what conclusions can we reach from the absence of such photographs and their sudden later appearance? That ch’huras came to existence only in the 20 century, as a result of pacification of Afghanistan and minituarization of photographic equipment?

The golden rule of science is that absence of evidence does not signify evidence of absence.

Thus, absence of photographs of the above “Berber” swords would not support or reject their Moroccan or Central American origin.

We are limited to contemporaneous drawings, locations of their finding and written accounts.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Plus I'm not denying these swords in Dominican republic, I'm saying that they were used with local Moroccan hilts and scabbards in Africa too...

Thank you for explaining, I think I understand your point now and agree with it. There is such a variety of blades on Moroccan saif (or nimcha, as we collectors like to call them for simplicity) that it appears that any decent blade would have been used and mounted according to local preference. The hilt is almost always the key to the attribution of ethnographic weapons, and as far as the hilts on these machetes are concerned, my conclusion based on the available information is that these hilts are Dominican, not Maghrebi.

Is it possible that some of these were shipped to Morocco and rehilted there? Yes, and hopefully one day someone will show a short sword with a motto in Spanish and a Moroccan hilt to confirm this.

[Kubur]

Another nice example of South Morocco Berber sword
The hilt follow Spanish mesoamerican traditions with a Spanish blade for export...

[Jim McDougall]

Another great example of these most interesting swords which we have discussed here so many times, and which appear to predominate in Cuba, Puerto Rico and the 'Spanish Main' to the Mexican coasts.
This example seems to have made it into the Spanish colonies in Morocco, just as the long disputed 'Berber sabres' of the OP.

These curious swords with the distinct 'finger stalls' and nocked pommel seem to have numerous variations, but the narrow blade and that 'squiggle' motif seem to occur almost characteristically on most. The one I obtained back in the 90s had a knuckleguard and shell guard much in the 'espada ancha' manner and was attributed to Monterrey, Mexico.


As I described in my post #10 (30 Oct 2018) I was researching these with Pierce Chamberlain ("Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821", 1972) back then, and others with focus on the Spanish Colonial aspects.
A number of years later, he contacted me and had found evidence of these being 'bring backs' from Spanish American war from Cuba.

After that Juan Calvo (2006) wrote his paper (op. cit. post #10) which described these as 'guanabacoa' apparently from the Cuban city near Havana . Clearly these diffused considerably through the Spanish Main and from Morocco to as far as the Philippines. I cannot see them as a functional weapon in most cases, but more as a ceremonial accoutrement.


While these, like the 'Berber sabres', were not indiginous to Morocco, they certainly occurred there, it seems mostly in the early years of the 20th century. As noted, Charles Buttin, in his thorough studies if ethnographic weapons, and after many years of residence in Morocco, never included either of these forms in his work.

Conversely, the also much discussed 'Zanzibar swords' (Demmin, 1877; Burton, 1884) he did note in his work (1933) and correct as actually s'boula daggers from Morocco.


Thank you for posting this Kubur!! Nice example!!

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Another nice example of South Morocco Berber sword
The hilt follow Spanish mesoamerican traditions with a Spanish blade for export...

I am just curious, what is the basis for the Moroccan attribution of this Spanish machete made for Spanish colonial forces? We know these were made in Spain and worn by Spanish officers in the Caribbean and the Philippines, see this post here:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.p...1&postcount=11

Was the example you posted specifically collected in Western Sahara with the appropriate provenance? If so, it would simply mean that a Spanish officer took one there, which is interesting but does not change much. To attribute it to Morocco as a native Berber weapon would be akin to stating that the Gras bayonet was a Berber weapon as well, because a few ended up in Berber hands from the French troops who were armed with the rifle.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by TVV

To attribute it to Morocco as a native Berber weapon would be akin to stating that the Gras bayonet was a Berber weapon as well, because a few ended up in Berber hands from the French troops who were armed with the rifle.

It's a very good example, yes many Moroccan sbula have Gras bayonet but they are Moroccan native weapons....with non native blades... Many koummiya have Spanish Toledo blades...
Most of the swords discussed on this forum are made with imported blades, Caucasus in India, English, French or Spanish in Morocco... Germans in Ethiopia... And i don't think that is a problem. It's very important to not see objects as black or white or to be stuborn...Natives did copies, natives reused Europeans blades all the times.
As you said it was very well demonstrated that these swords are Spanish colonial swords, but why to deny that these swords were used and copied in Morocco?

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Kubur

As you said it was very well demonstrated that these swords are Spanish colonial swords, but why to deny that these swords were used and copied in Morocco?

Because none of the parts of these machetes were made in Africa: hilts and blades were produced in Spain for use by Spanish colonial troops. An unmodified Gras bayonet is just that, a Gras bayonet.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Teodor for the link to that 2007 post by Marc (sure do miss his posts) who was in Barcelona. He had some great insights into Spanish and the colonial examples weapons.
My Spanish reading ability is pretty limited, but I got the impression in reading the Calvo text that these types of arms were 'de guanabacoa', not that it is relevant, I'm sure machetes Cubanos works as well.

Like the name or term thing, attribution or classification is always difficult as was well illustrated by the many years of debate over the 'Berber' sabre. Like this example of the OP, the variations of these were found as far as the Philippines, leading to the notion they were from there equally as the other suggestions.
On these guanabacoa(?) machete examples, I have even seen some of these posted in catalogs as Algerian!!!!????

As far as the example I have, the blade with similar markings and a knuckle guard added (stated from Monterrey. Mexico) is mostly akin to a barbeque tool, is rigid and like bar stock steel......it would not function as any sort of weapon except as a blunt force rod, let alone a machete. I do not know the character of the many other examples' blades, perhaps they are sharp.


The photos are I think from the Calvo article, but show the guard and 'shell' as on my example; the repeated pattern motif is similar to that on mine but I think the squiggle type.

Note the striations on the shell, resembling those of the espadas we have considered from South America with those same lines.
Also, it has always been curious that the notched indentation at the top of the hilt of these is effectively on the back rather than as a hand nock as found on nimchas as well as the South American espada,