An uncommon polearm for comments

fernando · 30th October 2018, 01:18 PM

Much obliged for the comprehensive input, Helleri

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Helleri · 10th November 2018, 08:18 PM

Thought this would be an interesting addition to this line of sub-topic. I found these yesterday in some stuff my boss has while helping him sort/organize his lean-to storage

(Pictures 1 & 2)

This pair of loppers has langets that might be at first confusing as to their function. After all shears are not excepted to receive blows. At most they would lightly abrade small branches. And they definitely would receive a blow to the inside of the handles. It's a good example of non-swung-tool langets and having langets for another/additional reason.

Notice they are along the axis on which the shafts would be under fairly extreme pressure when in use. No doubt this is to reinforce the shafts against snapping where they are most prone to do so.

Applying this thinking forward to weapons, how many times can one reasonably swing a long shafted, heavy ended weapon, even successfully landing blows, before it's wooden shaft cracks or snaps from repetitive stress?

It's something I had not considered before. But langets on weapons may very well be partly about reinforcing the strength of the shaft of a weapon against the stresses put on it (in addition to protecting it from blows).

Construction wise it should also be noted that while these might appear integral to the piece, they are not. They are pinned at the top by those bolsters. There is a slot cut into the wood, that the tang of looper's blades plunge down into. Similar to my own pair of loppers below.

(Pictures 3 & 4)

I hope this isn't too... Off into the weeds for most people's tastes. The tool/weapon association is very close. I'd be as bold as to say that most weapons are, at least in their most primitive forms, derived from tools (I consider hunting weapons to be tools as well). And historically a lot of tools would have doubled as makeshift weapons. So there does come a point where it's hard to talk about weapons or certain aspects thereof without discussing the connection between tools and weapons. Also the study of one can tell a person a lot about the other. As they use many of the same techniques and materials in construction,

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kronckew · 10th November 2018, 09:15 PM

One difference between English/American boarding axes and the French ones is the alignment of the languets, French ones have them fore and aft, US/UK ones port and starboard.

French naval tactics had them shoot for the rigging to disable the enemy, they expected the same in return, so their axes were designed mostly to damage control, removing broken rigging and spars, only secondarily as weapons.

English, US tactics were to go for the throat by smashing through the hull, disabling the guns and killing the crews, their ones were used for boarding and breaching barriers with hostiles behind, so had the languetes on the sides.

This carried over into their fire axes too.

Guess which is which

Helleri · 10th November 2018, 10:18 PM

It's really interesting how a small change shows a fairly substantial difference in primary function. Also I'd suspect (from how you describe their use) that the top image is the English/American boarding axe. Especially since there are plain and bold English lettered marks on it. Whereas the lower on has smaller marks in two fonts, one of which seems to be cursive (just feels more... french).

fernando · 11th November 2018, 01:06 PM

Wayne, are you concluding such perspective by your own reasoning or is this a registered evidence ?. I confess i don't catch some of your explanation (language issues).
I see langets placed along the blade sides and other on their front and back. It came to my mind that these were placed either in order to resist opponents weapon strikes or to prevent the haft to break itself with the (percussion) impact of several blows struck by their own user. Although the major number of langets are placed alongside the blade faces, some exceptions may be noticed; and i don't manage to follow a determined logic.
And by the way, isn't your PARKER example a fireman's axe ?

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kronckew · 11th November 2018, 03:00 PM

fore and aft= front and back
port=left side, starboard= right side.

Boarding axes have been discussed on the forum before.

Both axes are fire axes, as I mentioned at the end of my post. Both descended from boarding axes.

The english and French kept their languettes on the same side as their boarding axes had once had, despite any earlier military connotations or then current fire service use..

The penchant for targeting each nations enemy ships in the hull or the rigging is/was well known, as was the english habit of boarding to capture and force surrender, as opposed to the stand-off, disable and board after surrender used by the French.

The English axes thus had side languettes as they were more likely to be used in combat, while the french ones had the front/rear ones as they were more likely to be used to clear wreckage of broken spars, lines, timbers, etc. o protect the haft from overstriking.

Just more ammo for what you said too.

fernando · 11th November 2018, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

fore and aft= front and back; port=left side, starboard= right side...

Those ... i know what they mean.

. ... Although we here use a different terminolgy

.
On the other hand, i wouldn't know that the langets position criterion was exclusive from this or that other country. So my axe (and its twin brother that i shared) would be the English type, so to say. Alright then.

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10th November 2018, 08:18 PM	#2
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Thought this would be an interesting addition to this line of sub-topic. I found these yesterday in some stuff my boss has while helping him sort/organize his lean-to storage (Pictures 1 & 2) This pair of loppers has langets that might be at first confusing as to their function. After all shears are not excepted to receive blows. At most they would lightly abrade small branches. And they definitely would receive a blow to the inside of the handles. It's a good example of non-swung-tool langets and having langets for another/additional reason. Notice they are along the axis on which the shafts would be under fairly extreme pressure when in use. No doubt this is to reinforce the shafts against snapping where they are most prone to do so. Applying this thinking forward to weapons, how many times can one reasonably swing a long shafted, heavy ended weapon, even successfully landing blows, before it's wooden shaft cracks or snaps from repetitive stress? It's something I had not considered before. But langets on weapons may very well be partly about reinforcing the strength of the shaft of a weapon against the stresses put on it (in addition to protecting it from blows). Construction wise it should also be noted that while these might appear integral to the piece, they are not. They are pinned at the top by those bolsters. There is a slot cut into the wood, that the tang of looper's blades plunge down into. Similar to my own pair of loppers below. (Pictures 3 & 4) I hope this isn't too... Off into the weeds for most people's tastes. The tool/weapon association is very close. I'd be as bold as to say that most weapons are, at least in their most primitive forms, derived from tools (I consider hunting weapons to be tools as well). And historically a lot of tools would have doubled as makeshift weapons. So there does come a point where it's hard to talk about weapons or certain aspects thereof without discussing the connection between tools and weapons. Also the study of one can tell a person a lot about the other. As they use many of the same techniques and materials in construction, . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 15th November 2018 at 10:45 AM. Reason: Sorry ... no host image links allowed per forum rules; please be patient and upload them using forum picture attachment features

10th November 2018, 09:15 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	One difference between English/American boarding axes and the French ones is the alignment of the languets, French ones have them fore and aft, US/UK ones port and starboard. French naval tactics had them shoot for the rigging to disable the enemy, they expected the same in return, so their axes were designed mostly to damage control, removing broken rigging and spars, only secondarily as weapons. English, US tactics were to go for the throat by smashing through the hull, disabling the guns and killing the crews, their ones were used for boarding and breaching barriers with hostiles behind, so had the languetes on the sides. This carried over into their fire axes too. Guess which is which Attached Images

11th November 2018, 01:06 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Wayne, are you concluding such perspective by your own reasoning or is this a registered evidence ?. I confess i don't catch some of your explanation (language issues). I see langets placed along the blade sides and other on their front and back. It came to my mind that these were placed either in order to resist opponents weapon strikes or to prevent the haft to break itself with the (percussion) impact of several blows struck by their own user. Although the major number of langets are placed alongside the blade faces, some exceptions may be noticed; and i don't manage to follow a determined logic. And by the way, isn't your PARKER example a fireman's axe ? . Attached Images

30th October 2018, 01:18 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Much obliged for the comprehensive input, Helleri .

10th November 2018, 10:18 PM	#4
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	It's really interesting how a small change shows a fairly substantial difference in primary function. Also I'd suspect (from how you describe their use) that the top image is the English/American boarding axe. Especially since there are plain and bold English lettered marks on it. Whereas the lower on has smaller marks in two fonts, one of which seems to be cursive (just feels more... french).

11th November 2018, 03:00 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	fore and aft= front and back port=left side, starboard= right side. Boarding axes have been discussed on the forum before. Both axes are fire axes, as I mentioned at the end of my post. Both descended from boarding axes. The english and French kept their languettes on the same side as their boarding axes had once had, despite any earlier military connotations or then current fire service use.. The penchant for targeting each nations enemy ships in the hull or the rigging is/was well known, as was the english habit of boarding to capture and force surrender, as opposed to the stand-off, disable and board after surrender used by the French. The English axes thus had side languettes as they were more likely to be used in combat, while the french ones had the front/rear ones as they were more likely to be used to clear wreckage of broken spars, lines, timbers, etc. o protect the haft from overstriking. Just more ammo for what you said too.