A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

ariel · 28th October 2018, 03:23 PM

Agree.

Thirteen years have passed and this thread still reads kind of " unfinished".

Any additional comments on the topic?

Lee · 28th October 2018, 03:33 PM

Just an aside that this page of this thread in and of itself explains and justifies the Moderator Team's strict enforcement of the image upload policy.

Jens Nordlunde · 28th October 2018, 03:52 PM

Has it ever been testet with which power a katar can hit its target?
If it has, it should give en idea, although not proven in reality, if it is possible to penetrade a mail shirt.
There are a relatively big number of katars with a blade like the one to the left, and they were not made for fun.

ariel · 28th October 2018, 07:27 PM

As a matter of fact, other objects give support to the mail-piercing ability of bladed Indian ( or thereabouts) weapons.
Not long ago we have discussed the so-called Zirah Bouk, a " mail-piercer" in translation. The only qualification of that khanjar-like weapon is the reinforced tip, either as a diamond-shaped or as a prominent central rib. The very name of it is an incontrovertible evidence.

I have a likely Afghani Tulwar with the same feature, and katars with diamond-shaped tips are dime a dozen. Afghani Khybers solved the same engineering problem by their T-section.

These are the examples of a mandatory mechanical engineering course on the strength of construction materials.

Thus, Indian weapons with the ability to penetrate mail were in abundance.

Whether a straight stab with katar or a more circular one with a dagger-like weapon ( khanjar) is more economical and effective is above my paygrade.

Looking for a katar with obvious mail-induced damage to the tip is, IMHO, an exercise in futility. A stuck one would remain on the battlefield, a lightly damaged would be fixed and a badly damaged would be discarded. In any case, none of them would be preserved in the armoury or sold to a collector.

BI is 100% correct: the success of an attempt to penetrate mail depends on relative qualities of a blade vs. mail. What happens if an irresistible force meets an immovable object is a question better left to philosophers or theologians.

Jens Nordlunde · 28th October 2018, 10:34 PM

Yes Ariel is right when he writes, and so is B.I.
"Looking for a katar with obvious mail-induced damage to the tip is, IMHO, an exercise in futility. A stuck one would remain on the battlefield, a lightly damaged would be fixed and a badly damaged would be discarded. In any case, none of them would be preserved in the armoury or sold to a collector.

BI is 100% correct: the success of an attempt to penetrate mail depends on relative qualities of a blade vs. mail. What happens if an irresistible force meets an immovable object is a question better left to philosophers or theologians."

Although some of us struggle to find out how it all worked, a lot is still a very big question to us.
Small pieces are now and again found here and there - but the riddle is big, very big.

Another thing is, that the knowledge of South Indian and Rajasthan katars seems to be a riddle to some members - even the early ones.
When making a search it should be possible to get an idea of the difference, so please use the 'search' funcion.

Mercenary · 29th October 2018, 12:09 PM

It is still necessary to understand why would anyone have to try to penetrate a mail shirt. If he is not from "Cold steel" company of course.
I think in India warriors did a great job without it.

ariel · 29th October 2018, 08:38 PM

Well, the reason is rather simple: if your immediate opponent wears a mail and as they say in Texas “ needs killing”, you kind of wish your weapon had a reinforced tip, be it a Katar, a Zirah Bouk, or an Afghani ch’hura. Any implements that are flat and bendable need not apply.

28th October 2018, 03:33 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 949	Administrative comment Just an aside that this page of this thread in and of itself explains and justifies the Moderator Team's strict enforcement of the image upload policy.

28th October 2018, 03:52 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Has it ever been testet with which power a katar can hit its target? If it has, it should give en idea, although not proven in reality, if it is possible to penetrade a mail shirt. There are a relatively big number of katars with a blade like the one to the left, and they were not made for fun. Attached Images

28th October 2018, 03:23 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Agree. Thirteen years have passed and this thread still reads kind of " unfinished". Any additional comments on the topic?

28th October 2018, 07:27 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As a matter of fact, other objects give support to the mail-piercing ability of bladed Indian ( or thereabouts) weapons. Not long ago we have discussed the so-called Zirah Bouk, a " mail-piercer" in translation. The only qualification of that khanjar-like weapon is the reinforced tip, either as a diamond-shaped or as a prominent central rib. The very name of it is an incontrovertible evidence. I have a likely Afghani Tulwar with the same feature, and katars with diamond-shaped tips are dime a dozen. Afghani Khybers solved the same engineering problem by their T-section. These are the examples of a mandatory mechanical engineering course on the strength of construction materials. Thus, Indian weapons with the ability to penetrate mail were in abundance. Whether a straight stab with katar or a more circular one with a dagger-like weapon ( khanjar) is more economical and effective is above my paygrade. Looking for a katar with obvious mail-induced damage to the tip is, IMHO, an exercise in futility. A stuck one would remain on the battlefield, a lightly damaged would be fixed and a badly damaged would be discarded. In any case, none of them would be preserved in the armoury or sold to a collector. BI is 100% correct: the success of an attempt to penetrate mail depends on relative qualities of a blade vs. mail. What happens if an irresistible force meets an immovable object is a question better left to philosophers or theologians.

28th October 2018, 10:34 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Ariel is right when he writes, and so is B.I. "Looking for a katar with obvious mail-induced damage to the tip is, IMHO, an exercise in futility. A stuck one would remain on the battlefield, a lightly damaged would be fixed and a badly damaged would be discarded. In any case, none of them would be preserved in the armoury or sold to a collector. BI is 100% correct: the success of an attempt to penetrate mail depends on relative qualities of a blade vs. mail. What happens if an irresistible force meets an immovable object is a question better left to philosophers or theologians." Although some of us struggle to find out how it all worked, a lot is still a very big question to us. Small pieces are now and again found here and there - but the riddle is big, very big. Another thing is, that the knowledge of South Indian and Rajasthan katars seems to be a riddle to some members - even the early ones. When making a search it should be possible to get an idea of the difference, so please use the 'search' funcion.

29th October 2018, 12:09 PM	#6
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	It is still necessary to understand why would anyone have to try to penetrate a mail shirt. If he is not from "Cold steel" company of course. I think in India warriors did a great job without it.

29th October 2018, 08:38 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, the reason is rather simple: if your immediate opponent wears a mail and as they say in Texas “ needs killing”, you kind of wish your weapon had a reinforced tip, be it a Katar, a Zirah Bouk, or an Afghani ch’hura. Any implements that are flat and bendable need not apply.