Estradiot Yataghan

TVV · 21st October 2018, 06:28 PM

This is interesting food for thought, and there could be a link. In the early 14th century, the Golden Horde became an important ally to the Bulgarian state, and supplied troops to virtually all major battles fought by the Bulgarian tsars. These troops often proved to be the difference - they were late to arrive at Velbazhd, which to a great extent decided the outcome in favor of the Serbian Kingdom, for example. Tatar military equipment was certainly known and available in the Balkans.

kamachate · 13th November 2018, 07:16 PM

Dear all,
I am not qualified to talk on yataghans, but I want to draw some attention to the niello fittings. These ones on the sample (both the rivets and the one at the end of the pommel) remind me of the horse harness fittings of the Caucasian saddles. May I have the courage to suggest that these fittings are a secondary use from a saddle harness?

We do know that the harness fittings were used mostly on belts, but also bracelets, necklaces, and even on kindjals and shashkas. Here I attached two photos I just surfed on the net. Many -and precise parallels- can be found with a detailed search. So, IMHO, the "last touch" to the sample should be around the 2nd half of the 19th century, but the blade is of course an other story.

kamachate · 13th November 2018, 07:26 PM

Additionally, none of the niello fittings seem to be functional, which makes me think of some silver fittings from a harness used to dress it.
The pieces on a harness can easily be enough for a few "circassian" or "caucasian" belts, and yet some more will be spared for silver fittings where needed. I do have a similar piece on my shashka

ariel · 14th November 2018, 10:57 AM

Thanks for the examples. Indeed, they are very similar: simple examples of bosses with economical decorations.
IMHO, it would not be likely for a Balkan weapon to use details of Caucasian objects: I am unaware of any trade. Unless, of course one postulates reuse of broken equipment brought to the Balkans by Circassian muhajirs ( exiles) after massive ethnic cleansing of Circassians by the Russians or reuse of Russian military equipment from the Russo-Turkish war. Both events occurred in the second half of the 19 century. So, you might be correct with your dating. However, equally plausible might be local manufacture of simple parts with rather predictable decoration: kind of parallel development.

You are perfectly correct: these bosses have no practical mechanical use, they do not serve as reinforcers of anything. And that is exactly my point: they mimic the old and elaborate examples of ear daggers, so beloved by the Estradiots. As I said from the beginning this yataghan/karakulak is a homage to Estradiot weapon, NOT the contemporaneous Estradiot weapon.This would strengthen the feeling that it is of a relatively late manufacture. On that we are in agreement.

teratoni · 26th November 2018, 09:57 PM

The Yatagan of Suleiman the Magnificent is present to him by Osman bey(Yatagan baba)
In 1526 Osman conquered village Yatagan in Asia minor.
1516 is the end of 300 years old Bulgarian kingdom(own kings añd coins, Karamans ally) in Asia minor near the mountain Bulgardag and 100 km away from Yatagan village.
Master name is Tekeli - famous family name at Balkans - in old bulgarian translation of The Bible means Schekel.
Yat (ят) is old bulgarian letter with a form of a single edged sword and d-handle. Other old bulgarian letters Ф double axe and У sickle.
Gan -кан - ruller.
The father of Asparukh was Kubrat, VII century,the ruler of Crimea and his famous in this lands sword was made in Asia minor.
"Kr" in bulgarian, rusian deutch means - circle , gard- garden, Kreml..kulak means to slaghter - cut troath, ang Karakulak - round troath cutter.
Trakians have the same round swords wich name in bulgarian means to cut - Sika.
All around the famous centre of Wutz steel Merv we can find curved single edged blades and this village is in old bulgarians homeland Baktria.

ariel · 27th November 2018, 07:56 AM

Tekelu has nothing to do with Hebrew “shekel”: it signifies either belonging to a Central Asian Teke tribe ( currently in Turkmenistan/Afghanistan) or just a geographical descent from South Anatolia, Sanjak of Antalya (Teke), vilayet of Konya.

Making historical conclusions from homophonic words is a fallacious occupation. One acquaintance of mine tried to convince me that the capital of Poland, Warszawa, was originally called Beer Sheva and was established by Abraham himself:-)

I can go point by point, but it would be an unending game...

Just as an example: how about Sica and Hebrew Sakin ( just a “ knife”)?

Best wishes.

13th November 2018, 07:16 PM	#2
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	Dear all, I am not qualified to talk on yataghans, but I want to draw some attention to the niello fittings. These ones on the sample (both the rivets and the one at the end of the pommel) remind me of the horse harness fittings of the Caucasian saddles. May I have the courage to suggest that these fittings are a secondary use from a saddle harness? We do know that the harness fittings were used mostly on belts, but also bracelets, necklaces, and even on kindjals and shashkas. Here I attached two photos I just surfed on the net. Many -and precise parallels- can be found with a detailed search. So, IMHO, the "last touch" to the sample should be around the 2nd half of the 19th century, but the blade is of course an other story. Attached Images

21st October 2018, 06:28 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	This is interesting food for thought, and there could be a link. In the early 14th century, the Golden Horde became an important ally to the Bulgarian state, and supplied troops to virtually all major battles fought by the Bulgarian tsars. These troops often proved to be the difference - they were late to arrive at Velbazhd, which to a great extent decided the outcome in favor of the Serbian Kingdom, for example. Tatar military equipment was certainly known and available in the Balkans.

13th November 2018, 07:26 PM	#3
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	Additionally, none of the niello fittings seem to be functional, which makes me think of some silver fittings from a harness used to dress it. The pieces on a harness can easily be enough for a few "circassian" or "caucasian" belts, and yet some more will be spared for silver fittings where needed. I do have a similar piece on my shashka

14th November 2018, 10:57 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks for the examples. Indeed, they are very similar: simple examples of bosses with economical decorations. IMHO, it would not be likely for a Balkan weapon to use details of Caucasian objects: I am unaware of any trade. Unless, of course one postulates reuse of broken equipment brought to the Balkans by Circassian muhajirs ( exiles) after massive ethnic cleansing of Circassians by the Russians or reuse of Russian military equipment from the Russo-Turkish war. Both events occurred in the second half of the 19 century. So, you might be correct with your dating. However, equally plausible might be local manufacture of simple parts with rather predictable decoration: kind of parallel development. You are perfectly correct: these bosses have no practical mechanical use, they do not serve as reinforcers of anything. And that is exactly my point: they mimic the old and elaborate examples of ear daggers, so beloved by the Estradiots. As I said from the beginning this yataghan/karakulak is a homage to Estradiot weapon, NOT the contemporaneous Estradiot weapon.This would strengthen the feeling that it is of a relatively late manufacture. On that we are in agreement.

26th November 2018, 09:57 PM	#5
teratoni Member Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Varna, Bulgaria Posts: 1	The Yatagan of Suleiman the Magnificent is present to him by Osman bey(Yatagan baba) In 1526 Osman conquered village Yatagan in Asia minor. 1516 is the end of 300 years old Bulgarian kingdom(own kings añd coins, Karamans ally) in Asia minor near the mountain Bulgardag and 100 km away from Yatagan village. Master name is Tekeli - famous family name at Balkans - in old bulgarian translation of The Bible means Schekel. Yat (ят) is old bulgarian letter with a form of a single edged sword and d-handle. Other old bulgarian letters Ф double axe and У sickle. Gan -кан - ruller. The father of Asparukh was Kubrat, VII century,the ruler of Crimea and his famous in this lands sword was made in Asia minor. "Kr" in bulgarian, rusian deutch means - circle , gard- garden, Kreml..kulak means to slaghter - cut troath, ang Karakulak - round troath cutter. Trakians have the same round swords wich name in bulgarian means to cut - Sika. All around the famous centre of Wutz steel Merv we can find curved single edged blades and this village is in old bulgarians homeland Baktria.

27th November 2018, 07:56 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Tekelu has nothing to do with Hebrew “shekel”: it signifies either belonging to a Central Asian Teke tribe ( currently in Turkmenistan/Afghanistan) or just a geographical descent from South Anatolia, Sanjak of Antalya (Teke), vilayet of Konya. Making historical conclusions from homophonic words is a fallacious occupation. One acquaintance of mine tried to convince me that the capital of Poland, Warszawa, was originally called Beer Sheva and was established by Abraham himself:-) I can go point by point, but it would be an unending game... Just as an example: how about Sica and Hebrew Sakin ( just a “ knife”)? Best wishes.