Nomadic swords

[Philip]

Ariel,
'Thought you might like to compare the tunkou (sleeve at the forte of the blade) on your Qipchaq saber with a couple examples from later in history. The concept had a long shelf-life. The upper image is a saber blade, probably Seljuk, ca 1200 (image and historical identification from Haase, et al, Oriental Splendour: Islamic Art from German Pvt. Collections, 1993.) The lower one is an early 18th cent. Qing liuyedao (willow leaf saber) formerly in my collection. As on your blade, the tunkou on both examples is fashioned from iron sheet and is a friction-fit onto the blade. On other examples from the Mamluk/Ottoman sphere, and Ming/Qing China, it is chiseled in relief from the steel of the blade and there serves more as a decorative motif, but that is another topic for discussion.

[ariel]

Hi Philip,

Thanks for addressing the issue of Tunkou.
I want to pick your brain a little deeper.
First, a seller's pic of a Khazar saber from the Ukraine, allegedly 7-9 century. Hope to have it in my hands within a week or two. Its tunkou is of a traditional early form: long arm goes along the edge.
Next, 2 figs from David Nicolle's book ( presumably Daghestan , 13-14 century), ##645 and 646
One tunkou is just like yours and mine, another is kind of a square with a slit in the middle ( some later Chinese ones have it)
After that Iran, ~1306-1304. Something happened, tunkous flipped over: the long arm goes along the spine, ##626f and 626o.

The last one is a fresco of St. Nikita from Serbian Gracanica church, finished in 1321. Again, the long arm is on the top.

After that all tunkous , both functional and decorative, from Mughals, Iran, Ottoman Empire follow the same pattern.

Seems like the westward migrating Turks changed their Tunkous sometimes ~12-13 centuries, whereas eastward migrating ( China, SE Asia) stayed with the classical pattern. Japanese habaki may be an analog of a plain sleeve-like type.

Any thoughts?

P.S. Sorry, my computer has a mind of his own and the order of pics is mixed. But they are labeled and self-explanatory.

[ariel]

Teodor,
I cannot see any rivet holes in the tang. Do you think the original owners used some kind of mastique, akin to Indian tulwars, or was the tang damaged badly and the only way to fix it was with some kind of black steel epoxy? My original Khazar's tang was broken ( the seller was negligent) and I had to use a little bit of that epoxy to secure broken ends. It holds well, and the color matches the tannate solution, so I am ( almost) OK with it. I guess that 1300 years from now we will look worse than that. Some plastic surger-ized celebrities look worse even now, when they are still alive.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by ariel

Teodor,
I cannot see any rivet holes in the tang. Do you think the original owners used some kind of mastique, akin to Indian tulwars, or was the tang damaged badly and the only way to fix it was with some kind of black steel epoxy? My original Khazar's tang was broken ( the seller was negligent) and I had to use a little bit of that epoxy to secure broken ends. It holds well, and the color matches the tannate solution, so I am ( almost) OK with it. I guess that 1300 years from now we will look worse than that. Some plastic surger-ized celebrities look worse even now, when they are still alive.

Unfortunately I cannot tell for certain. It is very possible that there was a hole (or holes) but those were closed by accumulation of rust/dirt when the sword was berried and then sealed when it was restored after it was dug out.

As for Kubur's question of the word Nomadic, I assumed that it is used in the context of this threat to refer to the Pontic-Caspian steppe, as defined in Rivkin's book.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by TVV

As for Kubur's question of the word Nomadic, I assumed that it is used in the context of this threat to refer to the Pontic-Caspian steppe, as defined in Rivkin's book.

Correct.

[ariel]

Do we have any reliable evidence of the presence or absence of Habakis on Japanese swords before 13 century?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by ariel

Do we have any reliable evidence of the presence or absence of Habakis on Japanese swords before 13 century?

Per Leon Kapp, The Craft of the Japanese Sword, 1988: The chapter on habaki contains this historical background,

"Exactly how the habaki developed in Japan is not known. Like much of sword technology, it may have come from China by way of Korea. All steel swords in Japan, even the oldest straight blades from about the eighth century, have habaki. Early examples are welded onto the hilt, and are short compared to the ones seen today.

Habaki were a separate metal fitting by the Heian period. A few extant examples date from that time. The earliest habaki were probably made from iron, and later from pot metal, most of which was copper. Copper remains the metal of choice today... Unlike habaki today, however, these Heian-period habaki do not have foil coverings or decorations, and their sides are very thin and flat."

These two paragraphs are worthy of comment and analysis.
1. The author states that the habaki was a hallmark of Japanese sword construction from the beginning, and proposes a continental origin. I am searching for images of examples of very early Chinese and Korean steel swords (the backswords or pallasches that were the inspiration for the earliest swords made in Japan) that corroborate this. Unfortunately, all those that I am aware of are excavated pieces so seriously corroded (often rusted into their scabbards) that blade details are not discernible.

2. He states that the earliest habaki were of iron and have "very thin and flat" sides. This is in keeping with the proto-tunkou sleeves which we see on so many of the so-called "nomad swords" which are the focus of this thread. Thin and flat sides do little if anything to provide the function of a later habaki which is to seal the mouth of the scabbard (with sword fully sheathed) AND to keep the sides of the blade from rubbing against the wood of the scabbard channel and thus degrading the finely polished finish. The fully-developed habaki addresses these needs in an admirable fashion due to its complex lateral contours and distal taper. Likewise for the fully functional tunkou of substantial gauge as seen on many Ming / Qing transitional era sabers -- the thickness of the metal which is in relief to the blade surface, and the extended "tongue" along the edge, both stabilize the blade quite well within the scabbard.

3. Mr Kapp makes an interesting comment in that the earliest habaki "are short compared to the ones seen today". A modern habaki is also quite short compared to just about any Chinese tunkou or its functional and stylistic equivalents seen on medieval Eurasian (OK, "nomad") sabers, or on some of their Ottoman or Persian descendants. Furthermore, the extended "tongue" along the edge side which is a common feature of these continental types is not seen in Japan. This consideration leads me to suggest that perhaps the habaki had an independent origin in Japan and that an historical analysis should distinguish it from the tunkou (and its Inner Asian antecedents).

Ariel, to answer your previous question, yes I have Rivkin's book. I like the range of material covered and the quantity and quality of its illustrations but I also share some of Kubur's critiques. All in all, it's a valuable contribution to the literature and we are the richer for it.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by ariel

Hi Philip,

Thanks for addressing the issue of Tunkou.
I want to pick your brain a little deeper.
First, a seller's pic of a Khazar saber from the Ukraine, allegedly 7-9 century. Hope to have it in my hands within a week or two. Its tunkou is of a traditional early form: long arm goes along the edge.
Next, 2 figs from David Nicolle's book ( presumably Daghestan , 13-14 century), ##645 and 646
One tunkou is just like yours and mine, another is kind of a square with a slit in the middle ( some later Chinese ones have it)
After that Iran, ~1306-1304. Something happened, tunkous flipped over: the long arm goes along the spine, ##626f and 626o.

The last one is a fresco of St. Nikita from Serbian Gracanica church, finished in 1321. Again, the long arm is on the top.

After that all tunkous , both functional and decorative, from Mughals, Iran, Ottoman Empire follow the same pattern.

Seems like the westward migrating Turks changed their Tunkous sometimes ~12-13 centuries, whereas eastward migrating ( China, SE Asia) stayed with the classical pattern. Japanese habaki may be an analog of a plain sleeve-like type.

.

Ariel, you raise some very interesting issues.

The matter of specific shapes, especially whether the long side is on the edge or dorsal side of the blade, is interesting. I tend to put more confidence in what the surviving objects show. Works of art are a valuable tool for the arms historian, but there is always the consideration of artistic license. Especially in cultures and eras in which fidelity to minute details did not approach the standards set by the figurative art of Renaissance Europe and subsequent eras (at least until our modern age of abstract art!). Which is not to dismiss it entirely; it's just that we must be prepared, on occasion, to take elements cum grano salis until we have the occasion to let surviving examples of the objects speak for themselves.

The tunkou or its equivalent on Ottoman arms is worthy of further study. I will resize some images for my next post to show that a survival of the original concept (edge side longer) can be seen on some Mamluk and early Otto saber blades. But then we have the case of yataghans, on which a similar component is oriented the other way -- long side along the spine. I wonder if we should consider these disparate designs as coming from the same origin, or perhaps growing from disparate roots. Let's look at proto-yataghan blade shapes (recurved, single edged) from earlier cultures to see if antecedents exist for this specific component. Do you know of any such recurved blades being made and used in those same Eurasian nomad cultures that gave us the saber and pallasch? I recall seeing something like this in a Soviet publication on the Yenisei watershed finds, but need to dig it out and check. You are perhaps more familiar with this material than I am!

As re the Japanese habaki, which is the same length on both edge and dorsal sides (with a straight or slightly convex frontal contour), perhaps we need to regard that as an independent development, sprouting on its own on Japanese soil. Or perhaps sharing a common origin with the same feature on Korean single-edged swords, since the two cultures do seem to have common cultural-political-linguistic threads in archaic and early medieval epochs. Another feature which distinguishes the habacki from its continental counterpart is its distal (side-to-side) dimension. There is a notable taper, from rear to front, in thickness. Also, many of them tend to have a lateral "step" from having each face constructed of two pieces of metal, so that the posterior portion is actually two plates one atop the other. A tunkou lacks both these distinguishing characteristics.

[Philip]

You might want to see how the concept survived the post-medieval period, here illustrated by examples from the Mamluk and Chinese culture-spheres. To keep things more evenly comparable, these are all made by chiseling the shape in the steel of the blade, not by installing a separate component made of sheet iron or other metal. And all have the long side towards the edge of the blade.

The Islamic ones retain the feature in a stylistic sense only. By the end of the 15th cent. when these two blades were made, the original functional purpose of the device that inspired its use in medieval Eurasia had morphed into a stylized, decorative element. The two examples are identified as Mamluk; both are in the Topkapi Sarayi Museum. In the Furusiyya Foundation collection, there is a blade (inv. no. R-229) identified as Ottoman, 17th cent. that has a very similar feature (see The Arts of the Muslim Knight, 207, cat. no. 30, p 66)

The two Chinese ones are in private collections; the earlier one 16th-17th cent., the other one a century later. As with the Islamic ones, they have become more stylistic than functional. Indeed, by the 19th cent., tunkou fell largely into disuse on Chinese sabers.

[ariel]

I know the Mamluk ones.

Do you have Kirill Rivkin’s book on Eastern swords?
There are tons of data and very intelligent discussions of Nomadic, Mamluk and Ottoman tunkous.
And, yes, I do have pics of some Golden Horde yataghan-like blades. AFAIK, some have tunkous. Will post later.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

I know the Mamluk ones.

Do you have Kirill Rivkin’s book on Eastern swords?
There are tons of data and very intelligent discussions of Nomadic, Mamluk and Ottoman tunkous.
And, yes, I do have pics of some Golden Horde yataghan-like blades. AFAIK, some have tunkous. Will post later.

This post is extremely interesting, thank you Ariel.

I have Rivkin's book. I like it, but a lot of data are in fact personnal judgment and opinions. The whole diffusion process is not supported by scientific arguments. Then one part of the book is very similar to "Arms and armor of Caucasus". I have this book too and I prefer this book more grounded in the litterature...

Nomadic swords means what in fact?
Steppic swords? Central Asian swords? Or Horsemen Swords?
The Tuaregs were also nomadic...

Kubur

[Kubur]

To answer to Jim, Arial and Teodor posts I have to quote Philip.

Originally Posted by Philip

these are all made by chiseling the shape in the steel of the blade, not by installing a separate component made of sheet iron or other metal. And all have the long side towards the edge of the blade.

The Islamic ones retain the feature in a stylistic sense only. By the end of the 15th cent. when these two blades were made, the original functional purpose of the device that inspired its use in medieval Eurasia had morphed into a stylized, decorative element.

and to add

Sometimes it's not chiseled in the blade but added on the blade like cooper plates on the yatagan for example or the Tabouka.

Clearly decorative but as Philip noticed, the remain of an ancient practise, most probably functionnal.

Why, how and when I don't know.
It just notice that it happens on curved blades but also on straight blades...

I don't have any answer but additionnal comments...

Saying that I have my opinion
First it's to fix blade, guard and hilt alltogether like the nihonto
Second to absorb shocks during a fight
Third to maintain the blade in the scabbard