Bugis keris :Owned by or a gift to Makassar walikota 1967 ?

Sajen · 17th October 2018, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Rick, your configuration puts the disc-like piece in a different position. It does look awkward in Green's ensemble and i think maybe someone re-assembled it incorrectly.

Hello David,

I think that there is a lower part missing at Green's example, the small ring part under the cup looks very original to my eyes.

BTW, great google work with the Jalan H. M Dg. Patompo!

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 17th October 2018, 09:49 PM

Indonesia has a strong thread of militarism running through it. One of the products of this is that words get abbreviated and become acronyms (singkatan). In newspapers and magazines these acronyms proliferate to the extent that ordinary people often cannot understand an item of news --- and that's OK, because if they cannot understand it due to the use of acronyms, then it is obvious they were not intended to understand it. So you get the situation where people will ask one another what a particular acronym means, sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong. From time to time newspapers will publish a list of new acronyms, so people can follow the text.
There is a flow on from this official use of acronyms that is extremely unfortunate in development of the use of language and improvement of education --- but I won't go there.

In any case, in respect of "H. M Dg."

Dg. is an easy one, it is an abbreviation of "Daeng", which is a title in Southern Sulawesi.

In this case, "H" would be an abbreviation for "Haji", and "M" would be "Mohamad".

So:- Haji Mohamad Daeng Patompo.

There are other words that "H" can be an acronym for, and other words that "M" can be an acronym for, but in this case the words I have given are the most probable.

Now, Haji Mohamad Daeng Patompo was a very wealthy Bugis merchant who lived in Singapore in the early years of the 2oth century. My memory is that his name was much longer than that, but I've forgotten the rest of it. I think there was some story that he was actually Bugis/Chinese.

Incidentally, the word "Daeng" does not mean the same as "Walikota", or in English "Mayor". In Southern Sulawesi it is is a title of respect that would be given to an older person, or a person who because of social position or personal characteristics was regarded as "older".

The word "Kotamadya" is equivalent to "municipality" in English, possibly this might be what caused the confusion that "Daeng" is equivalent to "Mayor" or "Walikota". It would be reasonable to accept that perhaps a Walikota might be given the title of respect of "Daeng", because of his position, but "Daeng" does not equate to "Walikota".

But how does all that fit with a date of 1967?

Somebody else can have a go at explaining that, its beyond me.

David · 17th October 2018, 10:49 PM

That is all very useful information Alan.
But if i might draw everyone's attention to this link of TRADITION, ISLAM, AND REBELLION: SOUTH SULAWESI 1950-1965
HARVEY, BARBARA SILLARS:
http://www.oxis.org/theses/harvey-1974.pdf

If you scroll down to the acknowledgements you will find the following paragraph.
"Others helped in ways less obvious in the final product, but none- theless important, in what might be called logistical support. I would like particularly to thank those who made me so much a part of their own famiies: the Ma'Moen Soemadipradjas in Jakarta, Drs. and Mrs. J. A. Damopolii in Menado, and Mayor and Mrs. M. Daeng Patompo in Ujung Pandang."

I would suggest that given the time frame and the fact that this M. Dg. Patompo was in fact a Mayor that they are likely one in the same. The city of Makassar was apparently renamed Ujung Pandang from 1971-1999.

A. G. Maisey · 18th October 2018, 12:28 AM

No dispute about any of that David, however:-

"What does M. Dg Patompo means?. One Sulawesi friend mentioned that is "Walikota Makassar" .
This is what Green wrote. He questioned meaning, not who the person was.

What I wrote was that "daeng" does not mean "walikota",yes, certainly , the gentleman concerned might have been the mayor, but this was not what Green asked. Apart from this, my explanation was directed at the street name that you gave, and this included "H" the abbreviation for "haji", Green did not include "H".

Mohamad is a very common name in Indonesia, and maybe Patompo is a bit like "Smith" or "Brown".

What I gave was an explanation of the acronyms, and I made mention of the fact that this name belonged to a very well known Singapore businessman of Bugis descent. I believe that you have possibly identified the actual person who was involved with this keris in one way or another. Good work.

David · 18th October 2018, 04:02 AM

Alan, i am taking into account that English is not Green's first language, so when he asked "What does M. Dg Patompo means?" and it obviously looks like a person's name i am going to make the assumption that what Green is actually seeking is information about the person, that perhaps he has confused "what" for "who". The only reason that i posted the street address was because that was the first thing that turned up in my searches, though because i also found this name listed as a author of some writing i thought perhaps the address was named after this person, much in the way you might find Ronald Reagan Highway on a map in the United States.

A. G. Maisey · 18th October 2018, 05:00 AM

Yes, understood David.

I admit, I do have a fault in that when somebody asks a question, or answers a question I tend to automatically take that literally. Probably something to do with what I have done for most of my life to earn a living, regrettably it can be quite difficult to take suppositions into a board room, or a court of law.

Another reason for the way in which I responded is that I knew the answers, I knew the acronyms, I'd read about the Singapore merchant, so I did not have the advantage of having Dr. Google behind me, and actually right at the moment, I didn't have time to consult him.

David · 18th October 2018, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, understood David.

I admit, I do have a fault in that when somebody asks a question, or answers a question I tend to automatically take that literally. Probably something to do with what I have done for most of my life to earn a living, regrettably it can be quite difficult to take suppositions into a board room, or a court of law.

Another reason for the way in which I responded is that I knew the answers, I knew the acronyms, I'd read about the Singapore merchant, so I did not have the advantage of having Dr. Google behind me, and actually right at the moment, I didn't have time to consult him.

Yes, Dr. Google can be an amazing tool for finding answers...except when he is not. LOL!

17th October 2018, 09:49 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Indonesia has a strong thread of militarism running through it. One of the products of this is that words get abbreviated and become acronyms (singkatan). In newspapers and magazines these acronyms proliferate to the extent that ordinary people often cannot understand an item of news --- and that's OK, because if they cannot understand it due to the use of acronyms, then it is obvious they were not intended to understand it. So you get the situation where people will ask one another what a particular acronym means, sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong. From time to time newspapers will publish a list of new acronyms, so people can follow the text. There is a flow on from this official use of acronyms that is extremely unfortunate in development of the use of language and improvement of education --- but I won't go there. In any case, in respect of "H. M Dg." Dg. is an easy one, it is an abbreviation of "Daeng", which is a title in Southern Sulawesi. In this case, "H" would be an abbreviation for "Haji", and "M" would be "Mohamad". So:- Haji Mohamad Daeng Patompo. There are other words that "H" can be an acronym for, and other words that "M" can be an acronym for, but in this case the words I have given are the most probable. Now, Haji Mohamad Daeng Patompo was a very wealthy Bugis merchant who lived in Singapore in the early years of the 2oth century. My memory is that his name was much longer than that, but I've forgotten the rest of it. I think there was some story that he was actually Bugis/Chinese. Incidentally, the word "Daeng" does not mean the same as "Walikota", or in English "Mayor". In Southern Sulawesi it is is a title of respect that would be given to an older person, or a person who because of social position or personal characteristics was regarded as "older". The word "Kotamadya" is equivalent to "municipality" in English, possibly this might be what caused the confusion that "Daeng" is equivalent to "Mayor" or "Walikota". It would be reasonable to accept that perhaps a Walikota might be given the title of respect of "Daeng", because of his position, but "Daeng" does not equate to "Walikota". But how does all that fit with a date of 1967? Somebody else can have a go at explaining that, its beyond me. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 17th October 2018 at 10:11 PM.

17th October 2018, 10:49 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	That is all very useful information Alan. But if i might draw everyone's attention to this link of TRADITION, ISLAM, AND REBELLION: SOUTH SULAWESI 1950-1965 HARVEY, BARBARA SILLARS: http://www.oxis.org/theses/harvey-1974.pdf If you scroll down to the acknowledgements you will find the following paragraph. "Others helped in ways less obvious in the final product, but none- theless important, in what might be called logistical support. I would like particularly to thank those who made me so much a part of their own famiies: the Ma'Moen Soemadipradjas in Jakarta, Drs. and Mrs. J. A. Damopolii in Menado, and Mayor and Mrs. M. Daeng Patompo in Ujung Pandang." I would suggest that given the time frame and the fact that this M. Dg. Patompo was in fact a Mayor that they are likely one in the same. The city of Makassar was apparently renamed Ujung Pandang from 1971-1999. Last edited by David; 17th October 2018 at 11:59 PM.

18th October 2018, 12:28 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	No dispute about any of that David, however:- "What does M. Dg Patompo means?. One Sulawesi friend mentioned that is "Walikota Makassar" . This is what Green wrote. He questioned meaning, not who the person was. What I wrote was that "daeng" does not mean "walikota",yes, certainly , the gentleman concerned might have been the mayor, but this was not what Green asked. Apart from this, my explanation was directed at the street name that you gave, and this included "H" the abbreviation for "haji", Green did not include "H". Mohamad is a very common name in Indonesia, and maybe Patompo is a bit like "Smith" or "Brown". What I gave was an explanation of the acronyms, and I made mention of the fact that this name belonged to a very well known Singapore businessman of Bugis descent. I believe that you have possibly identified the actual person who was involved with this keris in one way or another. Good work.

18th October 2018, 04:02 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Alan, i am taking into account that English is not Green's first language, so when he asked "What does M. Dg Patompo means?" and it obviously looks like a person's name i am going to make the assumption that what Green is actually seeking is information about the person, that perhaps he has confused "what" for "who". The only reason that i posted the street address was because that was the first thing that turned up in my searches, though because i also found this name listed as a author of some writing i thought perhaps the address was named after this person, much in the way you might find Ronald Reagan Highway on a map in the United States.

18th October 2018, 05:00 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yes, understood David. I admit, I do have a fault in that when somebody asks a question, or answers a question I tend to automatically take that literally. Probably something to do with what I have done for most of my life to earn a living, regrettably it can be quite difficult to take suppositions into a board room, or a court of law. Another reason for the way in which I responded is that I knew the answers, I knew the acronyms, I'd read about the Singapore merchant, so I did not have the advantage of having Dr. Google behind me, and actually right at the moment, I didn't have time to consult him.