An uncommon polearm for comments

[Ian]

Hi Fernando,

Would this style of polearm not fall into the category of a glaive?

Ian.

[Madnumforce]

Is this absolutely sure this is actually a polearm, and not an agricultural tool some antique dealers managed to make a huge margin on? Cause it strongly reminds me of tools know in French under various names: coupe-marc, hache de chais, etc, that were used to cut and slice the cake in the vat of press. Of course, they are often sold, and even displayed in museums, as polearms. The difference is factor 5-15 on the price, and that's why it's still a lucrative business, combined with ignorance. Another kind of tool knows the same fate, and they're called in France taille-pré, coupe-pré, etc, that were used to cut gutters in meadows to drain them, or to create channels in which the rainwater would run and optimize irrigation (especially for vine and where the soil was poor). Coupe-marc are usually more nicely made than taille-prés, and for example it's a bit unlikely to find a closed socket on a taille-pré, but it's more common on coupe-marcs.

Since in Portugal there is also a long lived tradition of wine making and oil making, it wouldn't be surprising similar tool exist, and the same monkey business about them.

As illustration, a few pictures of various French coupe-marcs et taille-prés.

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Nando and welcome back from America (?)
My knowledge on polearms is limited to only the few i have seen in manuscripts. But.. whenever i find some usefull illustrations i save it.
So hereby a history of polearms.

[Victrix]

Many thanks to Fernando for raising an important point about polearms and their similarity with farm tools which is probably not coincidental. In medieval times there were many peasant rebellions and at other times peasants were often used to serve as infantry. They would then presumably use what was at hand, from which polearms developed. Madnumforce points out the racket in which farm tools on a stick are sold very profitably as antique arms, something which every arms collector should beware of. The distinction between farm tools and arms on sticks can sometimes be blurred and they may at times have been used for both purposes. I would suggest that polearms may be recognized by decorative elements that show intention for use in rituals, military/armoury marks, ruler coat of arms, etc. Even where there are no decorative elements, as in Fernando’s example above, the presence of langets suggests military use.

[CSinTX]

Originally Posted by Victrix

as in Fernando’s example above, the presence of langets suggests military use.

My thoughts as well. The langets on Fernandos piece are quite substantial. If original I would conclude weapon. If any signs of being added, I would conclude tool.

[fernando]

A pure (still used) tool like a Coupe-Marc, as eventually discussed HERE is not the issue in this case. Eventually when i bought my French coupe-marc example i had at the time enquired about such things with a local fellow collector and farmer, and in Portugal tools used for such purpose are not of a specific typology, as they use any 'practical' tool they have at hand.
It is visible that the langets in this present example are not an addition; they are so original as those shown in the uploaded pictures of three other examples exhibited in museums and having previously belonged to nobility collectors, in which we can rely on the weapon purpose plausibility.

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[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

...In medieval times there were many peasant rebellions and at other times peasants were often used to serve as infantry. They would then presumably use what was at hand, from which polearms developed...

I would say not only 'free lancers' resourcing rural tools to cause turbulence among defenseless villages but also traditional agricultors becoming part time 'regulars', when drafted by their land lords to form their infantry battle force (pawns) ...as it comes in the books.


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[kronckew]

The languettes weaponise this item whether added during initial construction or after... Just like a peasant levee having a spike and rear hook and a long pole added to his bill as he prepared for deployment.

Another copy of the illustration that does not have the spot covering the 'H' in the Couteau de Breche. (french - Breaching Knife) progression. I'd guess that corresponds to 'glaive'.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... The languettes weaponise this item whether added during initial construction or after...

Well Wayne, that is some approach; whether being borne with langets, or having them added later; and whether such langets were added to weaponise the item for real period action or recently for fantasy purposes ... like defrauding an unexperienced client. I guess each of the three versions has a distinct value, price and collecting wise.

Originally Posted by kronckew

Another copy of the illustration that does not have the spot covering the 'H' in the Couteau de Breche. (french - Breaching Knife) progression. I'd guess that corresponds to 'glaive'.

Breaching knives are not so wide bladed, in order to penetrate into siege wall breaches. Glaives are Fauchards in your spotless drawing.
I still don't find an 'universal' name for this Portuguese thing .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Hi Nando and welcome back from America (?)
My knowledge on polearms is limited to only the few i have seen in manuscripts. But.. whenever i find some usefull illustrations i save it.
So hereby a history of polearms.

Thank you for the welcome and for the illustration Marcus. I could swear i have one of these, somewhere among my micro library .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Fernando,

Would this style of polearm not fall into the category of a glaive?

Ian.

Well Ian, i tried to 'accomodate' this specimen in such typology, but i hesitated. For a start, there is no actual Portuguese translation for glaive; so i quit the glaive generic category and stood with the specific war sickle name.