Newbie in need of ID help...

Oliver Pinchot · 21st September 2018, 03:30 AM

Modern Indian work made in the last decade.

shayde78 · 21st September 2018, 03:46 AM

Do I see "tears" in the hilt. Was that ever a traditional feature?

Battara · 21st September 2018, 04:48 AM

Welcome to our little forum!

The scabbard mounts look modern Indian to me (better pictures would help) as well as the velvet condition.

I have not quite seen these from the Balkans, but I do agree with Khanjar 1 on them being from the Ottoman, Mughal, and Persian empires.

Again more pictures would be helpful.

OneshotOnekill · 21st September 2018, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Welcome to our little forum!

The scabbard mounts look modern Indian to me (better pictures would help) as well as the velvet condition.

I have not quite seen these from the Balkans, but I do agree with Khanjar 1 on them being from the Ottoman, Mughal, and Persian empires.

Again more pictures would be helpful.

I do think the scabbard is not old because the wood you can see on the inside looks very fresh and white. Any specific pictures you would like to see?
Thank you!

Kubur · 21st September 2018, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Modern Indian work made in the last decade.

OneshotOnekill · 21st September 2018, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Modern Indian work made in the last decade.

I'm specifically responding to this post because it's such a departure from the others. As I stated, I have no knowledge about these but I'm not sure it's quite that new. I have been reading as much as I can find online (which isn't much because I don't know how to search this) and was under the impression that forging Wootz steel was a lost art and hasn't been done since the mid 1800's... unless I'm mis-informed or this is not made of Wootz?
If it was made that recently, would it be considered a trinket made for the tourist trade or is it something of some quality? Other than the flaws in the steel itself it seems to be well made. And what of the "Tears" in the grip spine? Is that common in these?

TVV · 21st September 2018, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Modern Indian work made in the last decade.

I had the same suspicion, but it looks like the blade at least is old and just recently enhanced with fresh koftgari. Or am I wrong and blade is a newly made wootz blade?

Ian · 21st September 2018, 08:00 PM

Oliver raises a very good point. There are recently made Indian knives flooding the market, many coming from Rajastan, that are hard to distinguish from older knives with wootz blades. These copies are getting better and the appearance of the blades is getting closer to traditional wootz.

I would agree with those who point to a recent hilt and scabbard, and recent gold work on the blade. The question then becomes, Is this an old blade?

As I look at the blade, I see inconsistencies in the pattern that could indicate the blade is not traditional wootz. In particular, towards the tip, there are "blank areas" in the pattern. This suggests to me that Oliver is indeed correct, and the ensemble is recently made, most likely from northern India.

Ian.

sfenoid13 · 13th October 2018, 07:43 AM

Recent production from India.

mariusgmioc · 13th October 2018, 10:12 AM

Nothing "balkan" in this kard.

100% Indian, of recent production. Albeit of high quality showing crystalline wootz pattern.

ariel · 13th October 2018, 02:15 PM

I join: modern Indian work thru and thru.
They make wootz ingots in quantities and would have no problem forging one into a blade.
But the devil is in the details: they do not know how to forge it right and that is the reason for a pitiful and patchy pattern. The rest is obviously virginally fresh.

It is obviously well above their mass-produced daggers, but it ain’t no antique.

ALEX · 13th October 2018, 02:36 PM

[QUOTE=They make wootz ingots in quantities and would have no problem forging one into a blade.[/QUOTE]

Ariel,
I do not think this is the case nor real wootz ingots are being made

The subject blade is likely antique wootz blade, heavily grinded from larger blade, likely tulwar, into smaller one, which resulted in discoloration and losses of pattern. The modern "wootz" daggers made in India that look like wootz are not real wootz, just like "wootz" ingots they sell on eBay.

21st September 2018, 03:30 AM	#1
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 468	Modern Indian work made in the last decade.

21st September 2018, 03:46 AM	#2
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Do I see "tears" in the hilt. Was that ever a traditional feature?

21st September 2018, 04:48 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	Welcome to our little forum! The scabbard mounts look modern Indian to me (better pictures would help) as well as the velvet condition. I have not quite seen these from the Balkans, but I do agree with Khanjar 1 on them being from the Ottoman, Mughal, and Persian empires. Again more pictures would be helpful.

21st September 2018, 08:00 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Oliver raises a very good point. There are recently made Indian knives flooding the market, many coming from Rajastan, that are hard to distinguish from older knives with wootz blades. These copies are getting better and the appearance of the blades is getting closer to traditional wootz. I would agree with those who point to a recent hilt and scabbard, and recent gold work on the blade. The question then becomes, Is this an old blade? As I look at the blade, I see inconsistencies in the pattern that could indicate the blade is not traditional wootz. In particular, towards the tip, there are "blank areas" in the pattern. This suggests to me that Oliver is indeed correct, and the ensemble is recently made, most likely from northern India. Ian.

13th October 2018, 07:43 AM	#9
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	Recent production from India.

13th October 2018, 10:12 AM	#10
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Nothing "balkan" in this kard. 100% Indian, of recent production. Albeit of high quality showing crystalline wootz pattern.

13th October 2018, 02:15 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I join: modern Indian work thru and thru. They make wootz ingots in quantities and would have no problem forging one into a blade. But the devil is in the details: they do not know how to forge it right and that is the reason for a pitiful and patchy pattern. The rest is obviously virginally fresh. It is obviously well above their mass-produced daggers, but it ain’t no antique.

13th October 2018, 02:36 PM	#12
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	[QUOTE=They make wootz ingots in quantities and would have no problem forging one into a blade.[/QUOTE] Ariel, I do not think this is the case nor real wootz ingots are being made The subject blade is likely antique wootz blade, heavily grinded from larger blade, likely tulwar, into smaller one, which resulted in discoloration and losses of pattern. The modern "wootz" daggers made in India that look like wootz are not real wootz, just like "wootz" ingots they sell on eBay.