An American War of 1812 era cutlass

M ELEY · 9th September 2018, 09:39 PM

Thank you, David! I'm told the seller was a notorious Scottish pirate!

Thanks for agreeing to sell it to me. I'm glad to have it for my collection. I am still under the opinion that you blokes in Europe have a much better selection than we do here in the states. Honestly, I live in the southern U.S. and don't find swords like this. I'll occasionally find a gem or two.
Mark

Hotspur · 18th September 2018, 03:40 PM

Sorry but to me the grip looks like a more modern tool handle. The grip color from sizing to the ferrule seems to attest to that and consider a linoleum or other work knife handle and there you go.

The Rose bladed/Wolf eagle hilt as well looks like a modern reconstruction of the grip but it is represented in books as old.

Best
GC

M ELEY · 18th September 2018, 08:08 PM

Hello Glenn,

Possibly true. I had considered that when I first saw the crack...a tool handle split and fitted over the old tang. The only thing is the pics are deceptive. The grip actually fits perfectly into the ferrule and although lighter in color to the rest of the wood grip, it has a mellow patina, indicating age. Again, still a possible replacement, but it must have been from some time ago.

M ELEY · 2nd October 2018, 08:12 PM

I am willing to accept the possibility that the grip on this cutlass might be a replacement, but I am still of the opinion that it is contemporary with it and a replacement in its working life, not a modern fashioning. I base this on two points. First off, the pics don't show the rich patina to the wood, even to the inner split in the piece and to where part of the grip has chipped away. Two, it would have been nearly impossible to fit a tool handle on this piece in modern times without taking apart the hilt, which appears undisturbed. The knucklebow has undisturbed black lacquer, the fuller fully accepts the grip (the wood isn't cut off, but ftis into it) is intact, etc.

Finally, I have included some hilts on cutlasses of the period. You will note that many of the grips are plain, crude iron and/or wood, of varying shapes (including a 'tool handle' appearance, which seems to have become popular in the Federalist period), often turned on a lathe. One has to accept that private purchase is the key word here. If you are looking for nice, cast iron ribbed grips or fine swelled wooden grips, you are forgetting that these swords were purely utilitarian, not inspected by any government body or legislature and made during the period of war when the lowest bidder got the job of making mass quantities of the crude beasts (I love them anyway!

)

M ELEY · 2nd October 2018, 08:15 PM

This is from Moore's 'Weapons of the Revolution and Accoutrements', but I suspect this sword actually dates to the War of 1812. Sheet steel guards and maple grips (this one very closely matching mine) were common, especially on the so called Baltimore patterns.

JamesKelly · 11th February 2019, 12:38 AM

With respect to the use of a British cavalry sabre "...the blunt end could snap bones and crack skulls" my 4X Great- grandfather William Kelly was on the wrong end of one of these in May 1778. Thanks to the skill of one Dr. Wilford, a British surgeon in Philadelphia, who "...dressed the Wound...and took from it a part of the Scull", I am here to enjoy this site.

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2019, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesKelly

With respect to the use of a British cavalry sabre "...the blunt end could snap bones and crack skulls" my 4X Great- grandfather William Kelly was on the wrong end of one of these in May 1778. Thanks to the skill of one Dr. Wilford, a British surgeon in Philadelphia, who "...dressed the Wound...and took from it a part of the Scull", I am here to enjoy this site.

James, thank you so much for adding this interesting note!!! It really adds dimension to the actual use of these weapons to have these kinds of real time experiences passed down in family history. It is often surprising to see how many sword injuries were actually from blunt force trauma.

18th September 2018, 03:40 PM	#2
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	Sorry but to me the grip looks like a more modern tool handle. The grip color from sizing to the ferrule seems to attest to that and consider a linoleum or other work knife handle and there you go. The Rose bladed/Wolf eagle hilt as well looks like a modern reconstruction of the grip but it is represented in books as old. Best GC Last edited by Hotspur; 18th September 2018 at 03:52 PM.

2nd October 2018, 08:12 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Possible proof of contemporary hilt I am willing to accept the possibility that the grip on this cutlass might be a replacement, but I am still of the opinion that it is contemporary with it and a replacement in its working life, not a modern fashioning. I base this on two points. First off, the pics don't show the rich patina to the wood, even to the inner split in the piece and to where part of the grip has chipped away. Two, it would have been nearly impossible to fit a tool handle on this piece in modern times without taking apart the hilt, which appears undisturbed. The knucklebow has undisturbed black lacquer, the fuller fully accepts the grip (the wood isn't cut off, but ftis into it) is intact, etc. Finally, I have included some hilts on cutlasses of the period. You will note that many of the grips are plain, crude iron and/or wood, of varying shapes (including a 'tool handle' appearance, which seems to have become popular in the Federalist period), often turned on a lathe. One has to accept that private purchase is the key word here. If you are looking for nice, cast iron ribbed grips or fine swelled wooden grips, you are forgetting that these swords were purely utilitarian, not inspected by any government body or legislature and made during the period of war when the lowest bidder got the job of making mass quantities of the crude beasts (I love them anyway! ) Attached Images

2nd October 2018, 08:15 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Here's another... This is from Moore's 'Weapons of the Revolution and Accoutrements', but I suspect this sword actually dates to the War of 1812. Sheet steel guards and maple grips (this one very closely matching mine) were common, especially on the so called Baltimore patterns. Attached Images

9th September 2018, 09:39 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thank you, David! I'm told the seller was a notorious Scottish pirate! Thanks for agreeing to sell it to me. I'm glad to have it for my collection. I am still under the opinion that you blokes in Europe have a much better selection than we do here in the states. Honestly, I live in the southern U.S. and don't find swords like this. I'll occasionally find a gem or two. Mark

18th September 2018, 08:08 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Glenn, Possibly true. I had considered that when I first saw the crack...a tool handle split and fitted over the old tang. The only thing is the pics are deceptive. The grip actually fits perfectly into the ferrule and although lighter in color to the rest of the wood grip, it has a mellow patina, indicating age. Again, still a possible replacement, but it must have been from some time ago.

11th February 2019, 12:38 AM	#6
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	With respect to the use of a British cavalry sabre "...the blunt end could snap bones and crack skulls" my 4X Great- grandfather William Kelly was on the wrong end of one of these in May 1778. Thanks to the skill of one Dr. Wilford, a British surgeon in Philadelphia, who "...dressed the Wound...and took from it a part of the Scull", I am here to enjoy this site.