Arab? Musket

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi guys
i looked in my books and Elgood says Corg, Malabar...
So unless there is a matchlock from Koweit and I'm ready to accept this proposal (we need more Koweiti examples)
I think that the gun posted is from Malabar...
But the nice barrel is Persian if not Central Asian...

Kuwait is just like all the Arab countries who strictly brought weapons from abroad. You’ll find examples but without provenance it could very well be recently brought from Saudi or Oman. They all look nearly identical when it comes to the local additions. Many also retain decoration of their previous Indian or Persian owners. Some can be Ottoman guns too.

My reference to the example I own was not to conclude that the item posted is Kuwaiti or of any place in general but that it is fitting the broader style of Arab used guns.

With regards to the butt stock, I do not know why is it used but you can even find in modern guns such as the AK47.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Kuwait is just like all the Arab countries who strictly brought weapons from abroad. You’ll find examples but without provenance it could very well be recently brought from Saudi or Oman. They all look nearly identical when it comes to the local additions. Many also retain decoration of their previous Indian or Persian owners. Some can be Ottoman guns too.

My reference to the example I own was not to conclude that the item posted is Kuwaiti or of any place in general but that it is fitting the broader style of Arab used guns.

With regards to the butt stock, I do not know why is it used but you can even find in modern guns such as the AK47.

Thanks for the clarification Lofty. Exactly what I was trying to convey in #8 above.
Stu

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Thanks for the clarification Lofty. Exactly what I was trying to convey in #8 above.
Stu

Hi
Well let me be more clear.
I do not believe in these indo arab terms, it's a nonsense.
So if someone, Lofti or other, brings evidence that these guns were produced in the Gulf (Kuweit included) then I'll be happy.
But up to now these guns are known to be from the Corgs, Malabar.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi
Well let me be more clear.
I do not believe in these indo arab terms, it's a nonsense.
So if someone, Lofti or other, brings evidence that these guns were produced in the Gulf (Kuweit included) then I'll be happy.
But up to now these guns are known to be from the Corgs, Malabar.

No one is arguing these are made in Kuwait or anywhere else in the gulf. These and other fire arms, past and present are imported from abroad. Older abu fatilas are usually with Indian and Persian barrels. But the locals added decoration to it, including the butt stock. A thing they do even with modern weapons.

[BANDOOK]

I AGREE WITH KUBUR ,THIS IS FROM NORTH MALABAR/COORG REGION ,NICELY DECORATED,THE BUTT STOCK HAS ARAB ADDITIONS ,TRADE GUNS
I RECENTLY POSTED MY COORG GUN BUT NOT MANY MEMBERS COMMENTED ON MY POST EXCEPT RICK,AS THESE ARE RARE
BEST REGARDS
RAJESH

[rickystl]

What an interesting Thread. Great reading and photos.

So there seems to be some agreement here that Snowman's gun is probably of Coorg origin. After looking through Elgood's and other reference books, this does make sense. Notice the wood cresent shape butt cap on Snowman's gun was an intentional, Arab style addition, as it's held in place with screws or nails. Otherwise, the original butt stock shape looks like it would be similar to Bandook's gun.
I agree with Kubur that the barrel looks older. Persian or maybe Ottoman. But this would not be unusual. We see the reuse of older barrels often with these guns.

The use of leather/fur wrapped butt stocks is still somewhat of a mystery to me. Somewhere, I once read that the leather with the exposed fur (wolf?) was used to ward off evil spirits. But the general consesus is that the leather was applied to help reduce the gun's recoil. Which, I guess, is the more logical explanation at the moment. But here is what I find curious: If you shoot muzzle looading shoulder guns with normal charges of black powder, the recoil is less than that of a typical, modern high power rifle. And the heavier the barrel, the less recoil. Of course, with heavier charges of powder increases the recoil significantly. But I can't imagine them wanting to waste powder in this fashion using double plus the typical amounts. Although there is plenty of evidence that the barrels made for Torador guns were designed for heavy charges of powder. Maybe it was just common the use of heavier powder charges in the attempt to get longer range for the projectile. So I might be answeing my own question here. LOL

The cresant shaped wood butt caps seem to be an Arab styling alteration. Notice the three pics Stu posted of the Arab dancers. Some of the guns have this same wood cap, while others have the additional leather/fur wrap. To me, the wood caps seem more of a traditional styling exercise than anything else.
Here are a couple pics of original P1853 British Enfield rifles that are Arab/Omani decorated. Notice the butt stocks were altered to receive this style of wood cap.
So it makes one think that Snowman's Coorg gun may have seen eventual use somewhere in the Arab territories (?)

Rick

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by rickystl

What an interesting Thread. Great reading and photos.

So there seems to be some agreement here that Snowman's gun is probably of Coorg origin. After looking through Elgood's and other reference books, this does make sense. Notice the wood cresent shape butt cap on Snowman's gun was an intentional, Arab style addition, as it's held in place with screws or nails. Otherwise, the original butt stock shape looks like it would be similar to Bandook's gun.
I agree with Kubur that the barrel looks older. Persian or maybe Ottoman. But this would not be unusual. We see the reuse of older barrels often with these guns.

The use of leather/fur wrapped butt stocks is still somewhat of a mystery to me. Somewhere, I once read that the leather with the exposed fur (wolf?) was used to ward off evil spirits. But the general consesus is that the leather was applied to help reduce the gun's recoil. Which, I guess, is the more logical explanation at the moment. But here is what I find curious: If you shoot muzzle looading shoulder guns with normal charges of black powder, the recoil is less than that of a typical, modern high power rifle. And the heavier the barrel, the less recoil. Of course, with heavier charges of powder increases the recoil significantly. But I can't imagine them wanting to waste powder in this fashion using double plus the typical amounts. Although there is plenty of evidence that the barrels made for Torador guns were designed for heavy charges of powder. Maybe it was just common the use of heavier powder charges in the attempt to get longer range for the projectile. So I might be answeing my own question here. LOL

The cresant shaped wood butt caps seem to be an Arab styling alteration. Notice the three pics Stu posted of the Arab dancers. Some of the guns have this same wood cap, while others have the additional leather/fur wrap. To me, the wood caps seem more of a traditional styling exercise than anything else.
Here are a couple pics of original P1853 British Enfield rifles that are Arab/Omani decorated. Notice the butt stocks were altered to receive this style of wood cap.
So it makes one think that Snowman's Coorg gun may have seen eventual use somewhere in the Arab territories (?)

Rick

Interesting to note that the stocks of the 1853 Enfields shown above by Rick, do not appear to have the butts in question ADDED. In fact it appears from the pics, that the original stocks have been RESHAPED to achieve the appearance of the half moon.

As far as origin goes, I agree that it is very likely that Markku's gun is indeed from the Malabar Coast/Coorg. IF the butt is attached by a pin, as it appears from his pics, then it SHOULD be easy enough to remove to reveal the shape underneath. If the butt end shape underneath IS rounded as shown in other Coorg guns above, then it can reasonably be assumed that the origin of the subject gun is indeed also Malabar Coast/Coorg.
Stu