Matchlock gun of Afghanistan?

ariel · 27th August 2018, 02:18 PM

Toradars were spread all over India, from the Mughal domain to Mysore.
Do we know with certainty whence this particular one came?

rickystl · 27th August 2018, 02:48 PM

I have never seen rattan used on an gun of Afghan origin. But I have seen Toradors with silver, brass, wire, and even leather used for barrel bands.

Rick

fernando · 27th August 2018, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

...Do we know with certainty whence this particular one came?

Not with real authority; other that it is said to have a Farsi maker’s signature on the breech top of its wootz barrel, fastened with rattan bands.
Looks like Stone places Toradars more towards Central and Norther India

.

ariel · 27th August 2018, 07:01 PM

That's the rub....

Barrels were imported and transported, and the attribution of the finished product ( the gun in toto) is often determined by its stock/butt.
The Corrado's gun is not of a classical Afghani or Sindhi fashion.
On the other hand, here is one from Ashoka Art gallery, defined as South Indian. Its stock looks more like Corrado's. And yet another one from the same collection, also attributed to South India, and even with a rattan binding.
Rickystl and Fernando: thanks for your input, it provides quite a lot of food for thought.

mahratt · 27th August 2018, 07:17 PM

With all due respect to Stefan, there is no complete certainty that this type of matchlock is from South India. But even if he is from South India, this is not so important. In any case, Henry Moser bought such a matchlock in Turkestan. That is, in Afghanistan this type of gun could also be found.

ariel · 28th August 2018, 05:01 AM

Moser put all these guns into the section of Afghani weapons.
Taking into account that he never set foot in Afghanistan and that # 491 ( per Moser from Turkestan) is a classical example from Sindh, his attributions should be taken with a grain of salt.

Most importantly, Rickystl attested to the fact that he had never encountered Afghani gun with rattan binding; thus, his hint at the South Indian origin of the Corrado’s example acquires additional weight.

mahratt · 28th August 2018, 07:15 AM

For those who do not understand the first time, I will explain more popular.

Moser was not in Afghanistan. But Moser was in Turkestan, where he bought these matchlocks. In those days, there were no aircraft and a matchlock from Sind and from India could only get to Turkestan through Afghanistan. It's strange to think that such matchlocks were taken from India specifically to sell to Turkestan (although it might be somehow miraculously learned that Moser travels through Turkestan and buys weapons there?

). Much more logical another explanation. These matchlocks (both from Sind and from India) were used in Afghanistan and, thanks to trade caravans, were also brought to Turkestan.

But, of course, if we are talking about a matchlock corrado26, then we can only talk about the theoretical possibility that it could be used in Afghanistan.

fernando · 28th August 2018, 11:46 AM

Going back to the rattan problematic and within my deep limitations in the subject, i don't see that its use in barrel binding could exclusively determine the area where the gun was mounted. Rattan is used all over; such stuff would have and still forms a resource of trade. Naturally its potential use will be more abundant close from its origin but its spread is undeniable. Its bulk purpose being wicker work, Afghanis also have their share. Its local popular use extends to baskets used to carry opium for street sale and its necessary scales.

I see a Toradar labeled as from North India (Hindi written label and all) with the barrel attached to the stock with both wire and rattan capucines. So we have a 'mixed' approach here.

On the other hand, we have a Jezail in the Imperial war museum GB, with the following description:

"Matchlock jezail musket & ramrod. Facetted barrel, slightly belled at muzzle, and strengthened breech; integral sights, two rattan barrel bindings, lock with side mounted match holder, stock with applied ivory and brass decoration."

Pity no pictures available.

.

27th August 2018, 07:01 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	That's the rub.... Barrels were imported and transported, and the attribution of the finished product ( the gun in toto) is often determined by its stock/butt. The Corrado's gun is not of a classical Afghani or Sindhi fashion. On the other hand, here is one from Ashoka Art gallery, defined as South Indian. Its stock looks more like Corrado's. And yet another one from the same collection, also attributed to South India, and even with a rattan binding. Rickystl and Fernando: thanks for your input, it provides quite a lot of food for thought. Attached Images

27th August 2018, 07:17 PM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	With all due respect to Stefan, there is no complete certainty that this type of matchlock is from South India. But even if he is from South India, this is not so important. In any case, Henry Moser bought such a matchlock in Turkestan. That is, in Afghanistan this type of gun could also be found. Attached Images

28th August 2018, 07:15 AM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	For those who do not understand the first time, I will explain more popular. Moser was not in Afghanistan. But Moser was in Turkestan, where he bought these matchlocks. In those days, there were no aircraft and a matchlock from Sind and from India could only get to Turkestan through Afghanistan. It's strange to think that such matchlocks were taken from India specifically to sell to Turkestan (although it might be somehow miraculously learned that Moser travels through Turkestan and buys weapons there? ). Much more logical another explanation. These matchlocks (both from Sind and from India) were used in Afghanistan and, thanks to trade caravans, were also brought to Turkestan. But, of course, if we are talking about a matchlock corrado26, then we can only talk about the theoretical possibility that it could be used in Afghanistan. Last edited by mahratt; 28th August 2018 at 07:52 AM.

28th August 2018, 11:46 AM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Going back to the rattan problematic and within my deep limitations in the subject, i don't see that its use in barrel binding could exclusively determine the area where the gun was mounted. Rattan is used all over; such stuff would have and still forms a resource of trade. Naturally its potential use will be more abundant close from its origin but its spread is undeniable. Its bulk purpose being wicker work, Afghanis also have their share. Its local popular use extends to baskets used to carry opium for street sale and its necessary scales. I see a Toradar labeled as from North India (Hindi written label and all) with the barrel attached to the stock with both wire and rattan capucines. So we have a 'mixed' approach here. On the other hand, we have a Jezail in the Imperial war museum GB, with the following description: "Matchlock jezail musket & ramrod. Facetted barrel, slightly belled at muzzle, and strengthened breech; integral sights, two rattan barrel bindings, lock with side mounted match holder, stock with applied ivory and brass decoration." Pity no pictures available. . Attached Images

27th August 2018, 02:18 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Toradars were spread all over India, from the Mughal domain to Mysore. Do we know with certainty whence this particular one came?

27th August 2018, 02:48 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	I have never seen rattan used on an gun of Afghan origin. But I have seen Toradors with silver, brass, wire, and even leather used for barrel bands. Rick

28th August 2018, 05:01 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Moser put all these guns into the section of Afghani weapons. Taking into account that he never set foot in Afghanistan and that # 491 ( per Moser from Turkestan) is a classical example from Sindh, his attributions should be taken with a grain of salt. Most importantly, Rickystl attested to the fact that he had never encountered Afghani gun with rattan binding; thus, his hint at the South Indian origin of the Corrado’s example acquires additional weight.