Copper And Brass Philippine Dagger

Ian · 24th August 2018, 01:33 AM

In thinking about four-petal flowers of significance in Filipino culture, there is the Santan flower that has some importance--see http://www.psst.ph/top-7-flower-symb...s-philippines/.

Quote:

Santan or Ixora coccinea The flowering plants are normally planted near the entrance of one’s house. People believe that the blooming santan can ward off evil spirits and is a good luck plant when grown in large numbers. Flowers are also offered to young maidens which symbolizes the burning passion for their career and love. Recently , there is growing trend among bonsai hobbyists to use them as material for bonsai. This plant is easily grown through cuttings.

Commonly grown as a low hedge throughout the Philippines. Picture attached.

Ian.

Battara · 24th August 2018, 03:00 AM

On this talismanic dagger I think it is great!

I still wonder what they were for and how, though there were many para-religious/military groups around the turn of the century who fought against the Spanish.

A note: on the barong with ivory and damaging at the top of Lorenz's chart/picture, I offer another symbolic interpretation. This barong is mine and these triangles could also be bamboo shoots. Yes, bamboo shoots. (see picture) In neighboring Indonesia, these are stylistically used on textiles, weapons, and other metal wear. Indonesians, genetic/cultural/linguistic cousins to those in the Philippines, are closer still to the Sulu and other Moro peoples. They state that this is the origin of the motif. Now there may be a double entendre in use here in that the Philippine mentality of the triangle representing earth/sea/sky may also be involved.

Robert · 24th August 2018, 03:17 AM

Ian,
Thank you very much for your help in possibly identifying the proper name of the flower with four pointed petals seen on this dagger. Then by pointing out that "People believe that the blooming santan can ward off evil spirits and is a good luck plant" could also easily explain why these flowers are seen carved into the scabbards and hilts of many of the Philippine edged weapons that we see. Now if we could identify another flower with four more rounded petals that is also considered to be good luck or protection from evil it would explain the other flower found on the above dagger.

Best,
Robert

Robert · 24th August 2018, 06:46 AM

For anyone interested, here is some interesting information that I came across quite by accident. While the wife was in the hospital last year and l was left unsupervised to fend for myself (which is always a bad idea) I had gone to a little café/restaurant on I-69 outside of Pleasanton Kansas and was having coffee when an younger (most likely in their 40's) Philippine couple with an older gentleman came in for lunch and to rest a bit on their way to Oklahoma where I found later that they lived. They were driving back from KCI airport where they had picked up the younger mans Grandfather for a visit. Though it did seem a bit odd at the time I refrained from asking why he hadn't taken a flight where he would have landed closer to where they lived, but was later happy that he had not. After I overheard them talking about his flight from the Philippines I politely introduced myself and told them that I had a very good friend that lived there who like myself was an edged weapons collector. I explained that one of my main interests was the use of brass and copper bladed knives and daggers as talismans and ask if they might know or be able to tell me anything them. The older gentleman responded that though he had never owned one himself that he had in fact seen ones that had been owned by friends years ago. As I had just received a new example (I will take and post photos of it as soon as it quits raining here) I asked if they thought that they might to be there long enough for me to retrieve it for him to see. As they had not even received their orders they said that they would be happy to wait for a few minutes after they finished eating for me to return. This dagger has a double edged copper blade with a diamond cross section and a narrow groove cut almost the full length down the center of one side of the blade. When I returned and unwrapped it I started to hand the dagger to the Grandfather, but he motioned for me to place it on the table instead. He looked at it and then turned the dagger to where the blade was not pointing at anyone before he carefully picked it up. He then explained that he had seen a dagger like this before when he was a young man. He explained that he had been told that this type of dagger would be used to kill or disable a mangkukulam or witch (I looked up how to spell it later). He then told me that the groove would have been filled with a poison made from a certain type of spider and depending upon how strong the witch was if they (the witch) were to be stabbed or even cut by its blade that they would either die or they would loose their power preventing them from doing the daggers owner any future harm. By the way he acted next I was starting to believe that he might have had more than just a passing acquaintance with items such as this. After he had finished looking at it he placed the dagger back on the table and again positioned it to where the blade was not pointing directly at anyone. The grandson who had been looking with interest at the dagger started to reach for the dagger in an attempt to pick it up but the older gentleman grabbed his arm and said something to him I did not hear well enough to understand, but after this he did not try to touch it again. A few minutes later after having discussed the weather (always a topic for conversation in the country) the younger man said that it had reached the time for them to continue on their journey home. I politely thanked the older gentleman for sharing the knowledge he had of these items and then them all for being kind enough to wait for me while I left to retrieve it. As they were leaving I had a chance to ask the younger man what his Grandfather had said to him when he had reached to pick up the dagger. His reply was that his Grandfather had told him that he did not possess the power to be handling an item such as this.

I hope that this has been of some interest and has added a bit more information to the little we now have on these unusual items.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 24th August 2018, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

In thinking about four-petal flowers of significance in Filipino culture, there is the Santan flower that has some importance--see http://www.psst.ph/top-7-flower-symb...s-philippines/.

Commonly grown as a low hedge throughout the Philippines. Picture attached.

Hi Ian,

most interesting and informative!

This would explain also why the petals are carved pointed. Thank you very much for this lesson!

Regards,
Detlef

24th August 2018, 03:00 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	On this talismanic dagger I think it is great! I still wonder what they were for and how, though there were many para-religious/military groups around the turn of the century who fought against the Spanish. A note: on the barong with ivory and damaging at the top of Lorenz's chart/picture, I offer another symbolic interpretation. This barong is mine and these triangles could also be bamboo shoots. Yes, bamboo shoots. (see picture) In neighboring Indonesia, these are stylistically used on textiles, weapons, and other metal wear. Indonesians, genetic/cultural/linguistic cousins to those in the Philippines, are closer still to the Sulu and other Moro peoples. They state that this is the origin of the motif. Now there may be a double entendre in use here in that the Philippine mentality of the triangle representing earth/sea/sky may also be involved. Attached Images

24th August 2018, 06:46 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	For anyone interested, here is some interesting information that I came across quite by accident. While the wife was in the hospital last year and l was left unsupervised to fend for myself (which is always a bad idea) I had gone to a little café/restaurant on I-69 outside of Pleasanton Kansas and was having coffee when an younger (most likely in their 40's) Philippine couple with an older gentleman came in for lunch and to rest a bit on their way to Oklahoma where I found later that they lived. They were driving back from KCI airport where they had picked up the younger mans Grandfather for a visit. Though it did seem a bit odd at the time I refrained from asking why he hadn't taken a flight where he would have landed closer to where they lived, but was later happy that he had not. After I overheard them talking about his flight from the Philippines I politely introduced myself and told them that I had a very good friend that lived there who like myself was an edged weapons collector. I explained that one of my main interests was the use of brass and copper bladed knives and daggers as talismans and ask if they might know or be able to tell me anything them. The older gentleman responded that though he had never owned one himself that he had in fact seen ones that had been owned by friends years ago. As I had just received a new example (I will take and post photos of it as soon as it quits raining here) I asked if they thought that they might to be there long enough for me to retrieve it for him to see. As they had not even received their orders they said that they would be happy to wait for a few minutes after they finished eating for me to return. This dagger has a double edged copper blade with a diamond cross section and a narrow groove cut almost the full length down the center of one side of the blade. When I returned and unwrapped it I started to hand the dagger to the Grandfather, but he motioned for me to place it on the table instead. He looked at it and then turned the dagger to where the blade was not pointing at anyone before he carefully picked it up. He then explained that he had seen a dagger like this before when he was a young man. He explained that he had been told that this type of dagger would be used to kill or disable a mangkukulam or witch (I looked up how to spell it later). He then told me that the groove would have been filled with a poison made from a certain type of spider and depending upon how strong the witch was if they (the witch) were to be stabbed or even cut by its blade that they would either die or they would loose their power preventing them from doing the daggers owner any future harm. By the way he acted next I was starting to believe that he might have had more than just a passing acquaintance with items such as this. After he had finished looking at it he placed the dagger back on the table and again positioned it to where the blade was not pointing directly at anyone. The grandson who had been looking with interest at the dagger started to reach for the dagger in an attempt to pick it up but the older gentleman grabbed his arm and said something to him I did not hear well enough to understand, but after this he did not try to touch it again. A few minutes later after having discussed the weather (always a topic for conversation in the country) the younger man said that it had reached the time for them to continue on their journey home. I politely thanked the older gentleman for sharing the knowledge he had of these items and then them all for being kind enough to wait for me while I left to retrieve it. As they were leaving I had a chance to ask the younger man what his Grandfather had said to him when he had reached to pick up the dagger. His reply was that his Grandfather had told him that he did not possess the power to be handling an item such as this. I hope that this has been of some interest and has added a bit more information to the little we now have on these unusual items. Best, Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert; 27th August 2018 at 08:00 AM.

24th August 2018, 03:17 AM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Ian, Thank you very much for your help in possibly identifying the proper name of the flower with four pointed petals seen on this dagger. Then by pointing out that "People believe that the blooming santan can ward off evil spirits and is a good luck plant" could also easily explain why these flowers are seen carved into the scabbards and hilts of many of the Philippine edged weapons that we see. Now if we could identify another flower with four more rounded petals that is also considered to be good luck or protection from evil it would explain the other flower found on the above dagger. Best, Robert