Copper And Brass Philippine Dagger

Ian · 24th August 2018, 01:11 AM

Sajen,

I think we may be looking at depictions of more than one type of flower. As shown on the leather throat of your Visayan sword, one of these representations has a central round area and what appear to be the leaves that surrounded the pod from which the petals emerged, as shown in the picture of a catmon flower that you present. However, the carving adjacent to it looks different--there is no central round area and the pod leaves are missing. Looks like two different plants to me. In other depictions, some show a circular center and other do not. It is also curious that carvers would get the number of petals wrong consistently.

The five-petal example you show really does look like a catmon flower, so why the mistakes on other examples? Strange.

Ian.

Ian · 24th August 2018, 01:33 AM

In thinking about four-petal flowers of significance in Filipino culture, there is the Santan flower that has some importance--see http://www.psst.ph/top-7-flower-symb...s-philippines/.

Quote:

Santan or Ixora coccinea The flowering plants are normally planted near the entrance of one’s house. People believe that the blooming santan can ward off evil spirits and is a good luck plant when grown in large numbers. Flowers are also offered to young maidens which symbolizes the burning passion for their career and love. Recently , there is growing trend among bonsai hobbyists to use them as material for bonsai. This plant is easily grown through cuttings.

Commonly grown as a low hedge throughout the Philippines. Picture attached.

Ian.

Battara · 24th August 2018, 03:00 AM

On this talismanic dagger I think it is great!

I still wonder what they were for and how, though there were many para-religious/military groups around the turn of the century who fought against the Spanish.

A note: on the barong with ivory and damaging at the top of Lorenz's chart/picture, I offer another symbolic interpretation. This barong is mine and these triangles could also be bamboo shoots. Yes, bamboo shoots. (see picture) In neighboring Indonesia, these are stylistically used on textiles, weapons, and other metal wear. Indonesians, genetic/cultural/linguistic cousins to those in the Philippines, are closer still to the Sulu and other Moro peoples. They state that this is the origin of the motif. Now there may be a double entendre in use here in that the Philippine mentality of the triangle representing earth/sea/sky may also be involved.

Robert · 24th August 2018, 03:17 AM

Ian,
Thank you very much for your help in possibly identifying the proper name of the flower with four pointed petals seen on this dagger. Then by pointing out that "People believe that the blooming santan can ward off evil spirits and is a good luck plant" could also easily explain why these flowers are seen carved into the scabbards and hilts of many of the Philippine edged weapons that we see. Now if we could identify another flower with four more rounded petals that is also considered to be good luck or protection from evil it would explain the other flower found on the above dagger.

Best,
Robert

Robert · 24th August 2018, 06:46 AM

For anyone interested, here is some interesting information that I came across quite by accident. While the wife was in the hospital last year and l was left unsupervised to fend for myself (which is always a bad idea) I had gone to a little café/restaurant on I-69 outside of Pleasanton Kansas and was having coffee when an younger (most likely in their 40's) Philippine couple with an older gentleman came in for lunch and to rest a bit on their way to Oklahoma where I found later that they lived. They were driving back from KCI airport where they had picked up the younger mans Grandfather for a visit. Though it did seem a bit odd at the time I refrained from asking why he hadn't taken a flight where he would have landed closer to where they lived, but was later happy that he had not. After I overheard them talking about his flight from the Philippines I politely introduced myself and told them that I had a very good friend that lived there who like myself was an edged weapons collector. I explained that one of my main interests was the use of brass and copper bladed knives and daggers as talismans and ask if they might know or be able to tell me anything them. The older gentleman responded that though he had never owned one himself that he had in fact seen ones that had been owned by friends years ago. As I had just received a new example (I will take and post photos of it as soon as it quits raining here) I asked if they thought that they might to be there long enough for me to retrieve it for him to see. As they had not even received their orders they said that they would be happy to wait for a few minutes after they finished eating for me to return. This dagger has a double edged copper blade with a diamond cross section and a narrow groove cut almost the full length down the center of one side of the blade. When I returned and unwrapped it I started to hand the dagger to the Grandfather, but he motioned for me to place it on the table instead. He looked at it and then turned the dagger to where the blade was not pointing at anyone before he carefully picked it up. He then explained that he had seen a dagger like this before when he was a young man. He explained that he had been told that this type of dagger would be used to kill or disable a mangkukulam or witch (I looked up how to spell it later). He then told me that the groove would have been filled with a poison made from a certain type of spider and depending upon how strong the witch was if they (the witch) were to be stabbed or even cut by its blade that they would either die or they would loose their power preventing them from doing the daggers owner any future harm. By the way he acted next I was starting to believe that he might have had more than just a passing acquaintance with items such as this. After he had finished looking at it he placed the dagger back on the table and again positioned it to where the blade was not pointing directly at anyone. The grandson who had been looking with interest at the dagger started to reach for the dagger in an attempt to pick it up but the older gentleman grabbed his arm and said something to him I did not hear well enough to understand, but after this he did not try to touch it again. A few minutes later after having discussed the weather (always a topic for conversation in the country) the younger man said that it had reached the time for them to continue on their journey home. I politely thanked the older gentleman for sharing the knowledge he had of these items and then them all for being kind enough to wait for me while I left to retrieve it. As they were leaving I had a chance to ask the younger man what his Grandfather had said to him when he had reached to pick up the dagger. His reply was that his Grandfather had told him that he did not possess the power to be handling an item such as this.

I hope that this has been of some interest and has added a bit more information to the little we now have on these unusual items.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 24th August 2018, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

In thinking about four-petal flowers of significance in Filipino culture, there is the Santan flower that has some importance--see http://www.psst.ph/top-7-flower-symb...s-philippines/.

Commonly grown as a low hedge throughout the Philippines. Picture attached.

Hi Ian,

most interesting and informative!

This would explain also why the petals are carved pointed. Thank you very much for this lesson!

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 24th August 2018, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

I think we may be looking at depictions of more than one type of flower. As shown on the leather throat of your Visayan sword, one of these representations has a central round area and what appear to be the leaves that surrounded the pod from which the petals emerged, as shown in the picture of a catmon flower that you present. However, the carving adjacent to it looks different--there is no central round area and the pod leaves are missing. Looks like two different plants to me. In other depictions, some show a circular center and other do not. It is also curious that carvers would get the number of petals wrong consistently.

The five-petal example you show really does look like a catmon flower, so why the mistakes on other examples? Strange.

Exactly what I want to know and thought byself and the reason why I asked about this. Again, thank you very much!

Detlef

Ian · 25th August 2018, 01:44 AM

Robert, what a fascinating story! The older man must have been familiar with many of the customs and traditions of the "old ways." Clearly these brass bladed weapons have a powerful history.

There is a long tradition in many cultures of the power of simply pointing a weapon (or other item, such as a bone) at someone who will then die. In Australian aboriginal culture it is a bone. This topic might be a good idea for a new thread if someone who is more knowledgeable about it than I am would care to start one.

Ian.

Robert · 25th August 2018, 04:32 AM

Ian,
I like your idea for a new thread and hope that (as you have suggested) that someone more knowledgeable on the subject will choose to start one.
Here is another interesting story that was sent to me as a response when I had inquired about information on brass/copper daggers on another venue. The information offered in the reply I was told was attributed to the senders Grandfather. Here is what was sent;
"My Grandfather once told me that in Zamboanga City it is believed that you should carry a bronze knife at night as it can harm and chase away evil spirits and that if you do see a ghost or evil spirit ahead of you that you should turn around and stab the blade of the knife into the ground in front of you while reciting an incantation." Unfortunately the person who passed on this information to me told me he had no idea of what the incantation was and never replied to any other questions I tried to ask later. More information that appears to be related to this comes through a friend who talked to an anthropologist in the Philippines who in essence explained that brass or bronze is highly regarded spiritually because evil spirits are afraid of that alloy, being a metal concocted by man and not by nature. He also went on to say that even those brass/bronze dots on kris and kampilan etc. can be traced to that belief - that is, those dots are talismanic, being made of such alloy.
Something similar to stabbing a brass blade into the ground to chase away evil sprits that I was told is that it is a well established belief in Indonesian that if one wants to harm an enemy all he has to do is to take his keris and stab the footprints on the ground made by his enemy.

Best,
Robert

Robert · 27th August 2018, 08:10 AM

I have added two photos of the copper bladed dagger that I had shown to and was then given some very interesting information about by the older Philippine gentleman I met last year. Sorry about the poor quality.

Best,
Robert

Battara · 27th August 2018, 02:01 PM

FANTASTIC! 😃

Great info and now we may have answered the riddle of purpose and meaning to this type of blade.

Great work!

Maraming Salamat Robert!

Robert · 29th August 2018, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Great info and now we may have answered the riddle of purpose and meaning to this type of blade.

Jose, Thank you very much for your kind words about what has been posted here on these brass/copper bladed pieces, but Lorenz deserves more of the credit for this than I. He has always freely shared with me any and all information that he has been able to uncover over the years on these pieces. The meaning of the symbolisim used and purposes that they were believed to have been created for. I believe that this is only a starting point in trying to understand these and their place in Philippine culture and beliefs.

Ian, I noticed something unusual in the photo you posted of the Santan flowers. In the bottom right hand corner (cropped photo below) you can plainly see that one of the blooms has five petals instead of four as seen on all of the others. This makes me wonder if this might have any sugnificence and like a four leaf clover be concidered extra lucky?

Best,
Robert

24th August 2018, 03:00 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	On this talismanic dagger I think it is great! I still wonder what they were for and how, though there were many para-religious/military groups around the turn of the century who fought against the Spanish. A note: on the barong with ivory and damaging at the top of Lorenz's chart/picture, I offer another symbolic interpretation. This barong is mine and these triangles could also be bamboo shoots. Yes, bamboo shoots. (see picture) In neighboring Indonesia, these are stylistically used on textiles, weapons, and other metal wear. Indonesians, genetic/cultural/linguistic cousins to those in the Philippines, are closer still to the Sulu and other Moro peoples. They state that this is the origin of the motif. Now there may be a double entendre in use here in that the Philippine mentality of the triangle representing earth/sea/sky may also be involved. Attached Images

24th August 2018, 06:46 AM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	For anyone interested, here is some interesting information that I came across quite by accident. While the wife was in the hospital last year and l was left unsupervised to fend for myself (which is always a bad idea) I had gone to a little café/restaurant on I-69 outside of Pleasanton Kansas and was having coffee when an younger (most likely in their 40's) Philippine couple with an older gentleman came in for lunch and to rest a bit on their way to Oklahoma where I found later that they lived. They were driving back from KCI airport where they had picked up the younger mans Grandfather for a visit. Though it did seem a bit odd at the time I refrained from asking why he hadn't taken a flight where he would have landed closer to where they lived, but was later happy that he had not. After I overheard them talking about his flight from the Philippines I politely introduced myself and told them that I had a very good friend that lived there who like myself was an edged weapons collector. I explained that one of my main interests was the use of brass and copper bladed knives and daggers as talismans and ask if they might know or be able to tell me anything them. The older gentleman responded that though he had never owned one himself that he had in fact seen ones that had been owned by friends years ago. As I had just received a new example (I will take and post photos of it as soon as it quits raining here) I asked if they thought that they might to be there long enough for me to retrieve it for him to see. As they had not even received their orders they said that they would be happy to wait for a few minutes after they finished eating for me to return. This dagger has a double edged copper blade with a diamond cross section and a narrow groove cut almost the full length down the center of one side of the blade. When I returned and unwrapped it I started to hand the dagger to the Grandfather, but he motioned for me to place it on the table instead. He looked at it and then turned the dagger to where the blade was not pointing at anyone before he carefully picked it up. He then explained that he had seen a dagger like this before when he was a young man. He explained that he had been told that this type of dagger would be used to kill or disable a mangkukulam or witch (I looked up how to spell it later). He then told me that the groove would have been filled with a poison made from a certain type of spider and depending upon how strong the witch was if they (the witch) were to be stabbed or even cut by its blade that they would either die or they would loose their power preventing them from doing the daggers owner any future harm. By the way he acted next I was starting to believe that he might have had more than just a passing acquaintance with items such as this. After he had finished looking at it he placed the dagger back on the table and again positioned it to where the blade was not pointing directly at anyone. The grandson who had been looking with interest at the dagger started to reach for the dagger in an attempt to pick it up but the older gentleman grabbed his arm and said something to him I did not hear well enough to understand, but after this he did not try to touch it again. A few minutes later after having discussed the weather (always a topic for conversation in the country) the younger man said that it had reached the time for them to continue on their journey home. I politely thanked the older gentleman for sharing the knowledge he had of these items and then them all for being kind enough to wait for me while I left to retrieve it. As they were leaving I had a chance to ask the younger man what his Grandfather had said to him when he had reached to pick up the dagger. His reply was that his Grandfather had told him that he did not possess the power to be handling an item such as this. I hope that this has been of some interest and has added a bit more information to the little we now have on these unusual items. Best, Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert; 27th August 2018 at 08:00 AM.

24th August 2018, 01:11 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Sajen, I think we may be looking at depictions of more than one type of flower. As shown on the leather throat of your Visayan sword, one of these representations has a central round area and what appear to be the leaves that surrounded the pod from which the petals emerged, as shown in the picture of a catmon flower that you present. However, the carving adjacent to it looks different--there is no central round area and the pod leaves are missing. Looks like two different plants to me. In other depictions, some show a circular center and other do not. It is also curious that carvers would get the number of petals wrong consistently. The five-petal example you show really does look like a catmon flower, so why the mistakes on other examples? Strange. Ian.

24th August 2018, 03:17 AM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Ian, Thank you very much for your help in possibly identifying the proper name of the flower with four pointed petals seen on this dagger. Then by pointing out that "People believe that the blooming santan can ward off evil spirits and is a good luck plant" could also easily explain why these flowers are seen carved into the scabbards and hilts of many of the Philippine edged weapons that we see. Now if we could identify another flower with four more rounded petals that is also considered to be good luck or protection from evil it would explain the other flower found on the above dagger. Best, Robert

25th August 2018, 01:44 AM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Robert, what a fascinating story! The older man must have been familiar with many of the customs and traditions of the "old ways." Clearly these brass bladed weapons have a powerful history. There is a long tradition in many cultures of the power of simply pointing a weapon (or other item, such as a bone) at someone who will then die. In Australian aboriginal culture it is a bone. This topic might be a good idea for a new thread if someone who is more knowledgeable about it than I am would care to start one. Ian.

25th August 2018, 04:32 AM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Ian, I like your idea for a new thread and hope that (as you have suggested) that someone more knowledgeable on the subject will choose to start one. Here is another interesting story that was sent to me as a response when I had inquired about information on brass/copper daggers on another venue. The information offered in the reply I was told was attributed to the senders Grandfather. Here is what was sent; "My Grandfather once told me that in Zamboanga City it is believed that you should carry a bronze knife at night as it can harm and chase away evil spirits and that if you do see a ghost or evil spirit ahead of you that you should turn around and stab the blade of the knife into the ground in front of you while reciting an incantation." Unfortunately the person who passed on this information to me told me he had no idea of what the incantation was and never replied to any other questions I tried to ask later. More information that appears to be related to this comes through a friend who talked to an anthropologist in the Philippines who in essence explained that brass or bronze is highly regarded spiritually because evil spirits are afraid of that alloy, being a metal concocted by man and not by nature. He also went on to say that even those brass/bronze dots on kris and kampilan etc. can be traced to that belief - that is, those dots are talismanic, being made of such alloy. Something similar to stabbing a brass blade into the ground to chase away evil sprits that I was told is that it is a well established belief in Indonesian that if one wants to harm an enemy all he has to do is to take his keris and stab the footprints on the ground made by his enemy. Best, Robert

27th August 2018, 08:10 AM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I have added two photos of the copper bladed dagger that I had shown to and was then given some very interesting information about by the older Philippine gentleman I met last year. Sorry about the poor quality. Best, Robert

27th August 2018, 02:01 PM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	FANTASTIC! 😃 Great info and now we may have answered the riddle of purpose and meaning to this type of blade. Great work! Maraming Salamat Robert!