A mark (stamp) on a Spanish sword

mahratt · 17th August 2018, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Are you sure this is a Spanish mark, Mahratt ?
Can you show us a picture of the inscription on the blade ?

Here are inscriptions:

fernando · 17th August 2018, 02:00 PM

"MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO".
A typical Spanish inscription, sometimes added by the figure of a crucified Christ in the tang ricasso. German smiths also used such inscription when forging blades for the Spanish market.
Unfortunately i can not identify the mark you showed, after checking on the Palomares nomina, where most (all) known Toledo smiths up to 18th century are listed. Also not in Gyngell's work, neither in "Armi Bianchi Italiane", nor in "Wallace Collection" .
Still i think i have already seen this mark. Perhaps more equipped members can help.

midelburgo · 17th August 2018, 02:17 PM

The blade channel is typical from Solingen. Many walloon swords have the same. The motto is one of the four more often encountered in those bilbos. Pommel is atypical. These Boca de Caballo cavalry officer swords with four screws are probably after 1728. Previously they have more often two screws.

I also think I have seen those grapes before. I will check later.

fernando · 17th August 2018, 02:51 PM

Hi Midelburgo,
I have registered that, the four screws improvement was implemented when the Toledo Factory opened around 1760 and started production of this 1728 model. Also as from then, inspectors marks were stamped in the ricasso; this not meaning that the mark in Mahratt's blade is that of an inspector. Also at this point i wouldn't know whether such inspection marks were only stamped in King's property military swords, which wouldn't be the case here. Still possible that this is a German blade, although the habit to stamp marks in the ricasso seems to me more a Spanish fashion. On the other hand, for a Boca de Caballo, this one is rather atypical in its details; not only the pommel but also the grip, the straight quillons (some times seen) the fine decoration on the guard shells.
All in all, a rather exclusive sword, don't you think ?
It also surprises me that you name this type of swords as 'bilbos'

.

mahratt · 17th August 2018, 03:01 PM

Thanks for the info! I hope that you will remember about the mark.

midelburgo · 17th August 2018, 08:01 PM

I have checked Heribert Seitz and Nickel Ulstein books for the mark, and another couple from Solingen and the mark is not there. This just means it is not a main producer.

Fernando, what you say about Toledo could be valid for troopers swords. The 1728 regulation does not say anything about screws (you can find it here:
http://bibliotecavirtualdefensa.es/B...o.cmd?id=36321
Volume 3 page 318).

But In 1761, they write that the 1728 order shall be better enforced, from the redaction they just repeat the model 1728, with 4 screws. So I take the 1728 shall have 4 screws, but it was not always followed. Further I have seen 1728 model swords, which seem to be for troopers, with Solingen blades that shall predate Toledo (the production after 1760 was completed with swords from Barcelona) and four screws. First picture, by Gio Knecht, JKeiser, Coel...

Of course, they could be later remountings, this is not an exact science.

I just noticed the Keiser sword has a similar blade than the initial post.

Officers is a different business as they were not using always Toledo blades after 1761, and of course not before either.

By the style, older swords have only two screws. They are difficult to date and to distinguish if they are for an officer or for the trooper. This includes those from late XVIIth century. So I believe that after 1728, but possibly before, the tendency was towards 4 screws.

As for the position, next is a Coel blade with mark in the ricasso (and two screws plus another two for the guardapolvo).

Last is another with two screws with a similar motto.

fernando · 17th August 2018, 10:13 PM

Midelburgo, thank you for the link, which i saved.

Obviously i was referring to troopers swords when concerning the fixation screws. They might not be referred in the regulation, but i am based, among other, on the following notes, registered by Juan L Calvo:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf

Surely officers versions were commissioned and made "a la carte", where German blades, hilt sophistication and other details were introduced.
Perhaps when you have the time and disposition you take a quick look to this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23509

... pass the 'bilbo' term misuse.

Attached, the blade of one my cup hilted swords with the discussed motto, engraved in the same style.

.

17th August 2018, 02:51 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Midelburgo, I have registered that, the four screws improvement was implemented when the Toledo Factory opened around 1760 and started production of this 1728 model. Also as from then, inspectors marks were stamped in the ricasso; this not meaning that the mark in Mahratt's blade is that of an inspector. Also at this point i wouldn't know whether such inspection marks were only stamped in King's property military swords, which wouldn't be the case here. Still possible that this is a German blade, although the habit to stamp marks in the ricasso seems to me more a Spanish fashion. On the other hand, for a Boca de Caballo, this one is rather atypical in its details; not only the pommel but also the grip, the straight quillons (some times seen) the fine decoration on the guard shells. All in all, a rather exclusive sword, don't you think ? It also surprises me that you name this type of swords as 'bilbos' . Last edited by fernando; 17th August 2018 at 07:32 PM.

17th August 2018, 08:01 PM	#6
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	I have checked Heribert Seitz and Nickel Ulstein books for the mark, and another couple from Solingen and the mark is not there. This just means it is not a main producer. Fernando, what you say about Toledo could be valid for troopers swords. The 1728 regulation does not say anything about screws (you can find it here: http://bibliotecavirtualdefensa.es/B...o.cmd?id=36321 Volume 3 page 318). But In 1761, they write that the 1728 order shall be better enforced, from the redaction they just repeat the model 1728, with 4 screws. So I take the 1728 shall have 4 screws, but it was not always followed. Further I have seen 1728 model swords, which seem to be for troopers, with Solingen blades that shall predate Toledo (the production after 1760 was completed with swords from Barcelona) and four screws. First picture, by Gio Knecht, JKeiser, Coel... Of course, they could be later remountings, this is not an exact science. I just noticed the Keiser sword has a similar blade than the initial post. Officers is a different business as they were not using always Toledo blades after 1761, and of course not before either. By the style, older swords have only two screws. They are difficult to date and to distinguish if they are for an officer or for the trooper. This includes those from late XVIIth century. So I believe that after 1728, but possibly before, the tendency was towards 4 screws. As for the position, next is a Coel blade with mark in the ricasso (and two screws plus another two for the guardapolvo). Last is another with two screws with a similar motto. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 17th August 2018 at 08:12 PM.

17th August 2018, 10:13 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Midelburgo, thank you for the link, which i saved. Obviously i was referring to troopers swords when concerning the fixation screws. They might not be referred in the regulation, but i am based, among other, on the following notes, registered by Juan L Calvo: http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf Surely officers versions were commissioned and made "a la carte", where German blades, hilt sophistication and other details were introduced. Perhaps when you have the time and disposition you take a quick look to this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23509 ... pass the 'bilbo' term misuse. Attached, the blade of one my cup hilted swords with the discussed motto, engraved in the same style. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 17th August 2018 at 10:35 PM.

17th August 2018, 02:00 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	"MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO". A typical Spanish inscription, sometimes added by the figure of a crucified Christ in the tang ricasso. German smiths also used such inscription when forging blades for the Spanish market. Unfortunately i can not identify the mark you showed, after checking on the Palomares nomina, where most (all) known Toledo smiths up to 18th century are listed. Also not in Gyngell's work, neither in "Armi Bianchi Italiane", nor in "Wallace Collection" . Still i think i have already seen this mark. Perhaps more equipped members can help.

17th August 2018, 02:17 PM	#3
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	The blade channel is typical from Solingen. Many walloon swords have the same. The motto is one of the four more often encountered in those bilbos. Pommel is atypical. These Boca de Caballo cavalry officer swords with four screws are probably after 1728. Previously they have more often two screws. I also think I have seen those grapes before. I will check later.

17th August 2018, 03:01 PM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Thanks for the info! I hope that you will remember about the mark.