Keris Videos (Malay Peninsula)

[Green]

Jean,

Sorry, I don't feel very interested to view the whole videos. Even from the beginning I can see a few things that he said that I find questionable, so I don't think it's much value for me to view futher...

Another case in point is when he mentioned that keris maker is called 'empu' in malaysia. This i quite disagree with. Empu like warangan are not terms you generally use in malaysia. He may have meant the term as it is used in Indonesia but he did not make it clear enough .

David and Alan pointed out , warangan has been recorded to be used in Malaysia since as early 19th century... it may well be used by keris communities that have close association or much influenced by Java keris culture. But by and large it is foreign.

Malays never use the the specific word empu for keris makers as far as I can tell, despite what the prof said in the early part of the vid. Actually we (malaysian malays) don't have a specific word for that as far as I can tell.We usually refer to them as tukang buat keris, tukang buat sarong, tukan buat hulu... all general terms with the word 'tukang' in front (tukang= maker).


As to "Pandai Saras"... yes, we have words of mouth alleging that the original Pandai Saras originated from Jawa but like much of malay kerisology, we sadly don't have systematic and written documented primary information unlike the well documented and systematic kerisology of Jawa. Or if they exist they have been lost or hidden somewhere in overseas universities and museums?

[Jean]

Green,
Why don't you write a good book or articles about the Malay krisses? These are awaited by the collectors and would be very positively received I am sure.
Regards

[Green]

Originally Posted by Jean

Green,
Why don't you write a good book or articles about the Malay krisses? These are awaited by the collectors and would be very positively received I am sure.
Regards

Jean;

sorry if you take it that way... when i drive a proton saga (malaysian local car) and complain , by your argument i should make my own car

[David]

Originally Posted by Green

Jean;

sorry if you take it that way... when i drive a proton saga (malaysian local car) and complain , by your argument i should make my own car

Hi Green. I would be careful about attempting to read a tone or attitude into words written on the internet. In this case it seems that you have taken Jean's words "that way", but i see no indication that he was attempting to be dismissive or snarky based upon what he wrote. Indeed, keris collectors are always awaiting new articles and books on the subject. It might be better to take Jean's suggestion as a compliment rather an an offense.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Hi Green. I would be careful about attempting to read a tone or attitude into words written on the internet. In this case it seems that you have taken Jean's words "that way", but i see no indication that he was attempting to be dismissive or snarky based upon what he wrote. Indeed, keris collectors are always awaiting new articles and books on the subject. It might be better to take Jean's suggestion as a compliment rather an an offense.

Thank you David and this was exactly my intent, my comment was meant to be fully positive and encouraging only, sorry if it was misinterpreted.
I must also admit that as a kris book author I know the efforts to be undertaken and the many uncertainties faced for producing a decent result which is always subject to criticism so I tend to be tolerant with others's work even if I do not fully agree with their descriptions or opinions. After all, the main items of contention (empu definition, use of the warangan term, poisonous blades, and the possible misinterpretation about the origin of the kris) are not that critical IMO. About the last aspect, the lecturer insists that some Malay krisses are heavily influenced by the Bugis, who are Indonesians...
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

... I tend to be tolerant with others's work even if I do not fully agree with their descriptions or opinions. After all, the 3 main items of contention (empu definition, use of the warangan term, and the possible misinterpretation about the origin of the kris) are not that critical IMO. About the last aspect, the lecturer insists that some Malay krisses are heavily influenced by the Bugis, who are Indonesians...

Yes indeed, and this is why i continued watching even after the lecturer made a few comments that i disagreed with. It seems a bit hasty to dimiss this entire lecture simply because i disagree with a few points made by the lecturer. And we all know that keris understanding is often a matter of cultural perception and what is "true" for one group of collectors may not be true for another. I tend to wade through just about anything i can find on the keris and sort the wheat from the chaff based upon my own collected understandings.

[David]

Originally Posted by Green

Malays never use the the specific word empu for keris makers as far as I can tell, despite what the prof said in the early part of the vid. Actually we (malaysian malays) don't have a specific word for that as far as I can tell.We usually refer to them as tukang buat keris, tukang buat sarong, tukan buat hulu... all general terms with the word 'tukang' in front (tukang= maker)

Well, i don't want to belabor this debate about language and i am indeed sure that you are correct Green, that these words such as "empu" and "warangan" are borrow words from the Javanese. However, i believe it might be a bit imprudent to suggest that Malays "never" use the word "empu" for instance. Certainly we have the good Dr. Abdul Mua'ti, who is an Associate Professor at the Faculty of Modern Language and Communication, Universiti Putra Malaysia, using that word in the video along with certain other Javanese terminology. Clearly the words are not unknown and are occasionally used.