Keris Videos (Malay Peninsula)

Jean · 15th August 2018, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I was not aware that Empu Saras (Sarah) was supposed to be of Mojopahit origin so thank you for that info.

You can find this info after 12 mn and 50 seconds in the first video.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2018, 11:42 PM

Yes green, Malay is recognised as being a simple language, but in my experience, that simplicity only extends to the basic "Pasar Malay", or in my case "Pasar Indonesian". I learnt Indonesian as an adult, and I think it probably took me about 5 years to achieve a level of reasonable competency in Pasar Indonesian. I'm a slow learner, but in my own defence I must add that I found it almost impossible to learn in a classroom situation, and I learnt by writing and during my two and three monthly visits to Jawa & Bali. To move from Pasar Indonesian to the level suitable for official use, or for conversation in polite company, I think it probably took me about 20 years. I will say this:- Indonesian is far more simple than Italian, and infinitely more simple than English.

In fact, the dialect of Malay spoken in South East Sumatra was chosen as the foundation stone of national language, for the soon-to-be nation of Indonesia by the Indonesian Nationalist Movement in 1928. Sukarno as president did not choose Malay as the national language of Indonesia, but since he founded the PNI in 1927, it is likely that he was involved in the choice before he became president.

The choice was a logical one, because low Malay, or Pasar Malay (as opposed to Classical or High Malay) had been the language of trade for a 1000 years or more across much of, if not all, SE Asia, and by some accounts, even further afield. It was the language used to spread Islam and Christianity in Jawa and the rest of the Archipelago.

However, it is important to note that Bahasa Indonesia, ie, Indonesian, is a public language and the only official language, it is not used in the home, it is not used in colloquial exchanges, it is used in news broadcasts, nationally screened TV shows, official exchanges. In my experience, when ordinary people, as distinct from highly educated people, use Indonesian in Jawa, Bali, and Madura, the language that they use bears only a passing resemblance to Indonesian as we hear it in an official or public context. The language that these ordinary people call "Bahasa Indonesia" is so mixed with the other languages that these people speak, that it has become a dialect in its own right.

Relative to the use of the word "warangan", it is as David has already advised, the word "warangan" does appear in 19th century literature relevant to use in Malay. I agree that it is a loan word from Javanese, but once a loan word comes into another language it becomes a part of the lexicon of that language. As for using the test of recognition of a word by a native speaker in order to endorse its place in a language, I regret that we cannot accept that argument. My native language is English, and although I am reasonably proficient in the use of English, there are numerous words that I do not recognise. Just because a word is a part of a technical jargon, that does not exclude it from inclusion in the main body of the language.

A. G. Maisey · 15th August 2018, 11:58 PM

In respect of Empu Saras/Sarah.

There seems to be no mention of this person in the accepted documentation of the line of descent of Javanese empus to the time of Kartosuro.

This documentation is:- "Silsilah Turun-temuruning Empu Tanah Jawi".

Possibly Empu Saras/Sarah did come from Mojopahit, but perhaps the name used there was different. For Javanese people names can and do vary on a situational basis.

Green · 16th August 2018, 02:52 AM

Jean,

Sorry, I don't feel very interested to view the whole videos. Even from the beginning I can see a few things that he said that I find questionable, so I don't think it's much value for me to view futher...

Another case in point is when he mentioned that keris maker is called 'empu' in malaysia. This i quite disagree with. Empu like warangan are not terms you generally use in malaysia. He may have meant the term as it is used in Indonesia but he did not make it clear enough .

David and Alan pointed out , warangan has been recorded to be used in Malaysia since as early 19th century... it may well be used by keris communities that have close association or much influenced by Java keris culture. But by and large it is foreign.

Malays never use the the specific word empu for keris makers as far as I can tell, despite what the prof said in the early part of the vid. Actually we (malaysian malays) don't have a specific word for that as far as I can tell.We usually refer to them as tukang buat keris, tukang buat sarong, tukan buat hulu... all general terms with the word 'tukang' in front (tukang= maker).

As to "Pandai Saras"... yes, we have words of mouth alleging that the original Pandai Saras originated from Jawa but like much of malay kerisology, we sadly don't have systematic and written documented primary information unlike the well documented and systematic kerisology of Jawa. Or if they exist they have been lost or hidden somewhere in overseas universities and museums?

Jean · 17th August 2018, 08:23 AM

Green,
Why don't you write a good book or articles about the Malay krisses? These are awaited by the collectors and would be very positively received I am sure.
Regards

Green · 17th August 2018, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Green,
Why don't you write a good book or articles about the Malay krisses? These are awaited by the collectors and would be very positively received I am sure.
Regards

Jean;

sorry if you take it that way... when i drive a proton saga (malaysian local car) and complain , by your argument i should make my own car

David · 17th August 2018, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

Jean;

sorry if you take it that way... when i drive a proton saga (malaysian local car) and complain , by your argument i should make my own car

Hi Green. I would be careful about attempting to read a tone or attitude into words written on the internet. In this case it seems that you have taken Jean's words "that way", but i see no indication that he was attempting to be dismissive or snarky based upon what he wrote. Indeed, keris collectors are always awaiting new articles and books on the subject. It might be better to take Jean's suggestion as a compliment rather an an offense.

David · 17th August 2018, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

Malays never use the the specific word empu for keris makers as far as I can tell, despite what the prof said in the early part of the vid. Actually we (malaysian malays) don't have a specific word for that as far as I can tell.We usually refer to them as tukang buat keris, tukang buat sarong, tukan buat hulu... all general terms with the word 'tukang' in front (tukang= maker)

Well, i don't want to belabor this debate about language and i am indeed sure that you are correct Green, that these words such as "empu" and "warangan" are borrow words from the Javanese. However, i believe it might be a bit imprudent to suggest that Malays "never" use the word "empu" for instance. Certainly we have the good Dr. Abdul Mua'ti, who is an Associate Professor at the Faculty of Modern Language and Communication, Universiti Putra Malaysia, using that word in the video along with certain other Javanese terminology. Clearly the words are not unknown and are occasionally used.

15th August 2018, 11:42 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yes green, Malay is recognised as being a simple language, but in my experience, that simplicity only extends to the basic "Pasar Malay", or in my case "Pasar Indonesian". I learnt Indonesian as an adult, and I think it probably took me about 5 years to achieve a level of reasonable competency in Pasar Indonesian. I'm a slow learner, but in my own defence I must add that I found it almost impossible to learn in a classroom situation, and I learnt by writing and during my two and three monthly visits to Jawa & Bali. To move from Pasar Indonesian to the level suitable for official use, or for conversation in polite company, I think it probably took me about 20 years. I will say this:- Indonesian is far more simple than Italian, and infinitely more simple than English. In fact, the dialect of Malay spoken in South East Sumatra was chosen as the foundation stone of national language, for the soon-to-be nation of Indonesia by the Indonesian Nationalist Movement in 1928. Sukarno as president did not choose Malay as the national language of Indonesia, but since he founded the PNI in 1927, it is likely that he was involved in the choice before he became president. The choice was a logical one, because low Malay, or Pasar Malay (as opposed to Classical or High Malay) had been the language of trade for a 1000 years or more across much of, if not all, SE Asia, and by some accounts, even further afield. It was the language used to spread Islam and Christianity in Jawa and the rest of the Archipelago. However, it is important to note that Bahasa Indonesia, ie, Indonesian, is a public language and the only official language, it is not used in the home, it is not used in colloquial exchanges, it is used in news broadcasts, nationally screened TV shows, official exchanges. In my experience, when ordinary people, as distinct from highly educated people, use Indonesian in Jawa, Bali, and Madura, the language that they use bears only a passing resemblance to Indonesian as we hear it in an official or public context. The language that these ordinary people call "Bahasa Indonesia" is so mixed with the other languages that these people speak, that it has become a dialect in its own right. Relative to the use of the word "warangan", it is as David has already advised, the word "warangan" does appear in 19th century literature relevant to use in Malay. I agree that it is a loan word from Javanese, but once a loan word comes into another language it becomes a part of the lexicon of that language. As for using the test of recognition of a word by a native speaker in order to endorse its place in a language, I regret that we cannot accept that argument. My native language is English, and although I am reasonably proficient in the use of English, there are numerous words that I do not recognise. Just because a word is a part of a technical jargon, that does not exclude it from inclusion in the main body of the language.

15th August 2018, 11:58 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	In respect of Empu Saras/Sarah. There seems to be no mention of this person in the accepted documentation of the line of descent of Javanese empus to the time of Kartosuro. This documentation is:- "Silsilah Turun-temuruning Empu Tanah Jawi". Possibly Empu Saras/Sarah did come from Mojopahit, but perhaps the name used there was different. For Javanese people names can and do vary on a situational basis.

16th August 2018, 02:52 AM	#4
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 323	Jean, Sorry, I don't feel very interested to view the whole videos. Even from the beginning I can see a few things that he said that I find questionable, so I don't think it's much value for me to view futher... Another case in point is when he mentioned that keris maker is called 'empu' in malaysia. This i quite disagree with. Empu like warangan are not terms you generally use in malaysia. He may have meant the term as it is used in Indonesia but he did not make it clear enough . David and Alan pointed out , warangan has been recorded to be used in Malaysia since as early 19th century... it may well be used by keris communities that have close association or much influenced by Java keris culture. But by and large it is foreign. Malays never use the the specific word empu for keris makers as far as I can tell, despite what the prof said in the early part of the vid. Actually we (malaysian malays) don't have a specific word for that as far as I can tell.We usually refer to them as tukang buat keris, tukang buat sarong, tukan buat hulu... all general terms with the word 'tukang' in front (tukang= maker). As to "Pandai Saras"... yes, we have words of mouth alleging that the original Pandai Saras originated from Jawa but like much of malay kerisology, we sadly don't have systematic and written documented primary information unlike the well documented and systematic kerisology of Jawa. Or if they exist they have been lost or hidden somewhere in overseas universities and museums?

17th August 2018, 08:23 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Green, Why don't you write a good book or articles about the Malay krisses? These are awaited by the collectors and would be very positively received I am sure. Regards