Keris Videos (Malay Peninsula)

[Anthony G.]

If anyone asks me, my stand and perception is that I always felt that keris is originated from Indonesia and spread to other regions in SEAsia etc.

[David]

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

If anyone asks me, my stand and perception is that I always felt that keris is originated from Indonesia and spread to other regions in SEAsia etc.

Anthony, i believe it is generally accepted, even to many Malay keris collectors, that the origin of the keris is not just Indonesia, but specifically Jawa. This gentleman apparently holds a minority opinion.

[Green]

I have not watched the the vids except for the first few minutes of the first one where he mentioned about the keris spreading from malaysia to the rest of the 'nusantara' and I stopped there, so I can not make much comments. One shouldn't take the speaker's words as gospel of course, and it is quite possible that he made inadvertant mistake in term of properly articulating what he really meant?

This is because just about everybody in Malaysia ( and the speaker himself I believe ) agree that Keris originated from Indonesia.

the speaker is a farly well known keris enthusiast and have written 2 small books on keris which are rather cursory and general in my opinion. One of them is "Keris Melayu Semenanjung: Rupa bentuk keris mengikut negeri . (trans: Malay peninsula keris: forms according to states)

As to warangan, my belief is that it is Indonesian (and not even the whole regions) practice primarily. Even the word "warangan" is a borrowed word and does not appear in Malay.

[A. G. Maisey]

This comment is only relevant to the word "warang" or "warangan".

The word appears in Wilkinson, compiled prior to 1900, it was a word in common usage in Malay at that time, but Wilkinson gives origin as Javanese.

The word appears in Old Javanese and has several meanings, none of which relate to arsenic or realgar.

It is actually an interesting word, which possibly deserves further research by historical linguists, the entries in Zoetmulder seem to raise some interesting possibilities:- a relationship to colour?, to illness?, to a keris scabbard (warangka)?

It seems entirely possible that the application of the word to keris staining is something that might only have arisen in Modern Javanese, ie, since mid-17th century.

[Green]

Malay is essentially a very simple language. Migrant workers from South India or Nepal for example can pick up the language within 3 months without any formal training course and merely by interacting with their fellow malay co workers.

A great majority of malay words are borrowed from other languages. Primarily from sanskrit and later from arabic when the people became muslims and in the modern era a lot of words are taken fro English such as bas (bus) gelas (glass) komputer (computer) etc...It is not inconcievable that warang/warangan has been adopted by the malay keris community since early days but this word is never used in other situations by general population and if you ask any malays who do not delve in keris , it is almost certain that he will not know the word.

Having said that, and as an aside, it is to the great credit of Soekarno the late president of Indonesia who decided to use malay as the basis for 'bahasa Indonesia' and adopt it as the national language of Indonesia and bind the disparate people of Indonesia that speak all sorts of languages.

[David]

Originally Posted by Green

I have not watched the the vids except for the first few minutes of the first one where he mentioned about the keris spreading from malaysia to the rest of the 'nusantara' and I stopped there, so I can not make much comments. One shouldn't take the speaker's words as gospel of course, and it is quite possible that he made inadvertant mistake in term of properly articulating what he really meant?

This is because just about everybody in Malaysia ( and the speaker himself I believe ) agree that Keris originated from Indonesia.

the speaker is a farly well known keris enthusiast and have written 2 small books on keris which are rather cursory and general in my opinion. One of them is "Keris Melayu Semenanjung: Rupa bentuk keris mengikut negeri . (trans: Malay peninsula keris: forms according to states)

As to warangan, my belief is that it is Indonesian (and not even the whole regions) practice primarily. Even the word "warangan" is a borrowed word and does not appear in Malay.

I suppose it might be difficult to definitely assess what the lecturer's deeper thoughts on keris origin are simply by watching these videos. I do agree with you Green that the vast majority of keris collectors across the board tend to agree that Jawa is the origin of the keris. However, after watching this entire presentation i find hard to believe that there was not some purposeful intention it present these basic lessons about Malay keris completely devoid of any reference whatsoever to Javanese origins. Does the good Professor actually believe the keris originated in Malaysia? I think we would have to ask him to know for sure. But it does seem that he would like people to believe that is so.
However, with all information about the keris i think it is important not to allow what we might perceive as misinformation color the entire body of information we are viewing. I would recommend a complete viewing before forming any opinions on the over all value of the lecture. Again, i feel a lot of this was very basic information, but from a perspective i do not generally study, so i found valuable.
Regarding warangan in Malay keris culture, we did have this discussion before and it does seem to me that some very strong evidence was presented there that warangan was known and applied to Malay keris at least as early as 1839 if we believe the account written by Newbold at that time in "Political and Statistical Account of the British Settlements in the Straits of Malacca (...)", 1839, quotation from a Malayan MS on Krisses and process of damasking.:
"Political and Statistical Account of the British Settlements in the Straits of Malacca (...)", 1839, quotation from a Malayan MS on Krisses and process of damasking.

"How to damask Krises. - Place on the blade a mixture of boiled rice, sulphur, and salt beat together, first taking the precaution to cover the edges of the weapon with a thin coat of virgin wax. After this has remained on seven days, the damask will have risen on surface; take the composition off, and immerse the blade in the water of a young cocoa-nut, or the juice of a pine-apple, for seven days longer, and wash it well with the juice of a sour lemon. After the rust has been cleared away, rub it with warangan (arsenic) dissolved in lime juice; wash it well with spring water; dry, and anoint it with a cocoa-nut oil."

Other early examples pointing to this knowledge and use were also listed in a thread we had not to long ago. So while we can certainly see this word and process as something that is far more prevalent in Jawa, Bali, Madura and parts of Sumatra, it was certainly not unknown in parts of the Malay Peninsula.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

I suppose it might be difficult to definitely assess what the lecturer's deeper thoughts on keris origin are simply by watching these videos. I do agree with you Green that the vast majority of keris collectors across the board tend to agree that Jawa is the origin of the keris. However, after watching this entire presentation i find hard to believe that there was not some purposeful intention it present these basic lessons about Malay keris completely devoid of any reference whatsoever to Javanese origins. Does the good Professor actually believe the keris originated in Malaysia? I think we would have to ask him to know for sure. But it does seem that he would like people to believe that is so.

David,
The good Professor mentions the mythical empu Sarah (unknown to me) from Majapahit as the originator of the kris pandai saras so he does not completely rule-out the Indonesian origin of the kris. And I am not able to fully understand what else he said about the origin of the kris (the translation is minimal, may be Green can confirm) so I give him the benefit of the doubt. Anyway it is clear that the Malay kris followed a separate development as compared to Java/ Madura/ Bali since several centuries, but with some Bugis influences in some areas.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

David,
The good Professor mentions the mythical empu Sarah (unknown to me) from Majapahit as the originator of the kris pandai saras so he does not completely rule-out the Indonesian origin of the kris. And I am not able to fully understand what else he said about the origin of the kris (the translation is minimal, may be Green can confirm) so I give him the benefit of the doubt. Anyway it is clear that the Malay kris followed a separate development as compared to Java/ Madura/ Bali since several centuries, but with some Bugis influences in some areas.
Regards

Yes, i certainly noted that at times there was more talk than words translated so i am sure i was missing parts of this. I was not aware that Empu Saras (Sarah) was supposed to be of Mojopahit origin so thank you for that info.
Certainly once the keris was established in Malay areas it did indeed take its own route of development and developed its own terminology and customs.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

I was not aware that Empu Saras (Sarah) was supposed to be of Mojopahit origin so thank you for that info.

You can find this info after 12 mn and 50 seconds in the first video.
Regards