Wootz afghan knife for komments

ariel · 11th August 2018, 09:39 PM

Well, the original picture told the truth: instead of being flat along the entire length, the blade becomes diamond-shaped. This, with even a mild thickening, converts it into a reinforced one and suitable for mail/ armor piercing.

Seems it is a Zirah Bouk after all.

mahratt · 11th August 2018, 10:36 PM

In the message No. 40 - uniquely Zirah Bouk

ariel · 11th August 2018, 11:23 PM

Marius,
Artzi never used " Zirah Bouk" as an adjective, ie Blue skies, Fat person, Tasty food etc. Thus, I am not sure that your proposal of : Zirah Bouk Kard", "Zirah Bouk Peshkabz" , "Zirah Bouk Katar" etc can be used.

In both examples not clearly labeled as Zirah Bouk as such, he uses
" diamond cross-section tip in a typical Zirah-Bouk (Mail Piercer) tip" . The degree of swelling varied from example to example.
As a matter of fact, Artzi's item # 5887 does not differ one bit from Rumpel9's one.

mahratt · 11th August 2018, 11:43 PM

It has long been clear that Artzi's item # 5887 is Pesh Kabz, with a tip like Zirah Bouk. (although you can wait for what Artzi himself will say).
But here is what is written on the website armsandantiques.com: "A fine example of a 19th C. Indian kard but with a large and hardened inserted tip ito create an armor piercing tip in the form of a zirah bouk dagger"

http://armsandantiques.com/19th-c-w...d-dagger-id1134

Here, on specific examples, it was shown what Zirah Bouk is. It's never too late to learn

Ian · 12th August 2018, 02:28 AM

Mahratt,

I can read Mr Yarom's text as supporting either you or Ariel in your different views--it is a little ambiguous. As I noted earlier, I think he may have changed his mind over time about the naming of this style of knife. That could be contributing to some of the confusion.

May I suggest that you email him and ask his opinion, then report what he said back here. You might also consider asking Mr Elgood what he thinks. That way we can have additional data from two respected authorities on which to form an opinion. Otherwise, you are locked into circular reasoning that is going nowhere at the moment.

Ian.

ariel · 12th August 2018, 02:31 PM

I found just now a wonderful example that was generously posted by Mahratt on a Russian forum : a 3-D photograph of a dagger from one of the Russian museums. It is defined as Zirah Bouk by the museum and Mahratt did not cast any doubt on this attribution.
Here it is:

https://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/79/2328051.html

The beauty of it is that we can rotate it any way we wish. It is as close to " I hold it in my hands" as possible.

The distal half of the blade is diamond-shaped and just a tad thicker than the flat part of the blade, no different than Artzi's example and the one presented by Rumpel9.

Citing Stone: "A knife with a point thickened so that it is strong enough to be forced through mail. The name is given to any knife with the point reinforced"

Citing Elgood: " Dagger with a thickened point to pierce mail"

I might have contributed to the confusion of this discussion by using word
" massive" in reference to the reinforced part. Sorry for that. The degree of thickening could vary just to assure sufficient mechanical strenghtening, and a conversion from flat to diamond-shaped with even minor thickening is mechanically enough to create a stiffening rib and prevent lateral bending.

Thus, Runpel9's example is a Zirah Bouk.

mahratt · 12th August 2018, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Mahratt,

I can read Mr Yarom's text as supporting either you or Ariel in your different views--it is a little ambiguous. As I noted earlier, I think he may have changed his mind over time about the naming of this style of knife. That could be contributing to some of the confusion.

May I suggest that you email him and ask his opinion, then report what he said back here. You might also consider asking Mr Elgood what he thinks. That way we can have additional data from two respected authorities on which to form an opinion. Otherwise, you are locked into circular reasoning that is going nowhere at the moment.

Ian.

Dear Ian.

In my humble opinion, it is not necessary to convey the words of the person who can tell what he thinks himself. Artzi reads the forum and can write what he meant.

But, I would like to ask a question personally to you, dear Jan. If there was not this fascinating discussion and you saw two of these daggers, would you decide that they are different from each other?

mahratt · 12th August 2018, 03:31 PM

It is very pleasant that Ariel reads my messages in the Russian forum

Really, the beauty 3-D Zirah Bouk of it is that we can rotate it any way we wish.

But, unfortunately, Ariel watched the 3d image inattentively .... He somehow does not see the absence of the T-shaped backrest, which is typical for Pesh-kabza and is absent from Zirah Bouk. And now the massive tip that can be seen on the 3-D model Zirah Bouk for him is not so important

https://sketchfab.com/models/3...ain=share-popup

https://sketchfab.com/models/3d5ba8e...a0cd0e7f5b1fe1

ariel · 13th August 2018, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Dear Ian.
If there was not this fascinating discussion and you saw two of these daggers, would you decide that they are different from each other?

Even though the question was not addressed to me, I would humbly offer my thoughts.

Legalistically speaking, both are Zirah Bouks.
But the black handled one seems to be a real fighting example, while the white handled one is a decorative or tourist type. The pimple at the point does not appear to create a good stiffening rib to prevent lateral bending: Stone as an engineer emphasized “ strong enough”.

My pure IMHO and 5 cents worth....

11th August 2018, 11:23 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marius, Artzi never used " Zirah Bouk" as an adjective, ie Blue skies, Fat person, Tasty food etc. Thus, I am not sure that your proposal of : Zirah Bouk Kard", "Zirah Bouk Peshkabz" , "Zirah Bouk Katar" etc can be used. In both examples not clearly labeled as Zirah Bouk as such, he uses " diamond cross-section tip in a typical Zirah-Bouk (Mail Piercer) tip" . The degree of swelling varied from example to example. As a matter of fact, Artzi's item # 5887 does not differ one bit from Rumpel9's one. Last edited by ariel; 12th August 2018 at 01:39 AM.

11th August 2018, 11:43 PM	#4
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	It has long been clear that Artzi's item # 5887 is Pesh Kabz, with a tip like Zirah Bouk. (although you can wait for what Artzi himself will say). But here is what is written on the website armsandantiques.com: "A fine example of a 19th C. Indian kard but with a large and hardened inserted tip ito create an armor piercing tip in the form of a zirah bouk dagger" http://armsandantiques.com/19th-c-w...d-dagger-id1134 Here, on specific examples, it was shown what Zirah Bouk is. It's never too late to learn Attached Images

12th August 2018, 02:31 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I found just now a wonderful example that was generously posted by Mahratt on a Russian forum : a 3-D photograph of a dagger from one of the Russian museums. It is defined as Zirah Bouk by the museum and Mahratt did not cast any doubt on this attribution. Here it is: https://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/79/2328051.html The beauty of it is that we can rotate it any way we wish. It is as close to " I hold it in my hands" as possible. The distal half of the blade is diamond-shaped and just a tad thicker than the flat part of the blade, no different than Artzi's example and the one presented by Rumpel9. Citing Stone: "A knife with a point thickened so that it is strong enough to be forced through mail. The name is given to any knife with the point reinforced" Citing Elgood: " Dagger with a thickened point to pierce mail" I might have contributed to the confusion of this discussion by using word " massive" in reference to the reinforced part. Sorry for that. The degree of thickening could vary just to assure sufficient mechanical strenghtening, and a conversion from flat to diamond-shaped with even minor thickening is mechanically enough to create a stiffening rib and prevent lateral bending. Thus, Runpel9's example is a Zirah Bouk. Last edited by ariel; 13th August 2018 at 03:26 AM.

12th August 2018, 03:31 PM	#8
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	It is very pleasant that Ariel reads my messages in the Russian forum Really, the beauty 3-D Zirah Bouk of it is that we can rotate it any way we wish. But, unfortunately, Ariel watched the 3d image inattentively .... He somehow does not see the absence of the T-shaped backrest, which is typical for Pesh-kabza and is absent from Zirah Bouk. And now the massive tip that can be seen on the 3-D model Zirah Bouk for him is not so important https://sketchfab.com/models/3...ain=share-popup https://sketchfab.com/models/3d5ba8e...a0cd0e7f5b1fe1 Attached Images

11th August 2018, 09:39 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, the original picture told the truth: instead of being flat along the entire length, the blade becomes diamond-shaped. This, with even a mild thickening, converts it into a reinforced one and suitable for mail/ armor piercing. Seems it is a Zirah Bouk after all.

11th August 2018, 10:36 PM	#2
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	In the message No. 40 - uniquely Zirah Bouk

12th August 2018, 02:28 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Mahratt, I can read Mr Yarom's text as supporting either you or Ariel in your different views--it is a little ambiguous. As I noted earlier, I think he may have changed his mind over time about the naming of this style of knife. That could be contributing to some of the confusion. May I suggest that you email him and ask his opinion, then report what he said back here. You might also consider asking Mr Elgood what he thinks. That way we can have additional data from two respected authorities on which to form an opinion. Otherwise, you are locked into circular reasoning that is going nowhere at the moment. Ian.