Wootz afghan knife for komments

ariel · 6th August 2018, 10:25 PM

Glad we agree on the second dagger's handle. As to the first one, IMHO it is also not original, but this is merely my IMHO, And even if this Zirah Bouk was born with this handle, the blade is also not typical. But who said that Indian bladesmiths always rigidly followed some ministry-approved patterns and never ventured into a little bit of improvisation? Look at Khybers length, geometry ( straight, curved, recurved), handles. Bladesmithing was not an industrial operation: different masters with different skill levels, from different tribes and villages had a general gestalt of a weapon and let their fantasies run wild.
One googles " zirah bouk images" and finds everything and anything.

In my book it is a Zirah Bouk:-)

rumpel9 · 7th August 2018, 06:53 PM

Ariel, you're right. I was wrong about T-type back of Zirah Bouk. it's not unusual. However, for me there is still a question: which people which region did the handles of this type belong to?

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2018, 09:47 AM

Hello Ariel,
In my opinion, all the knives you show in your posting are clearly Pesh-kabz.
It is very common for Indian Pesk-kabz to have a strengthened tip.
My two cents...

PS: Please note that the knife in question does NOT even have a strengthened tip but a clipped tip! So, in my oppinion, a Zirah bouk is out of the question.

mahratt · 8th August 2018, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Ariel,
In my opinion, all the knives you show in your posting are clearly Pesh-kabz.
It is very common for Indian Pesk-kabz to have a strengthened tip.
My two cents...

Hello, Marius

I think you are right. Here is a typical Zirah Bouk. As you can see, T-spine of Zirah Bouk - it's unusual:

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2018, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Hello, Marius

I think you are right. Here is a typical Zirah Bouk. As you can see, T-spine of Zirah Bouk - it's unusual:

That is EXACTLY what I know to be a Zirah Bouk!

Thank you for the excellent examples!

ariel · 8th August 2018, 10:54 PM

Marius:
Well, please feel free to believe what you want.
One can selectively choose ones with T-spine or equally selectively choose ones without it and proclaim them either rare or commonplace.
The fact is simple: there were Zirah Bouks with T-spine; thus, its presence does NOT define them as NOT Zirah Bouks.
The funny thing that two of my examples are from the same source you liked so much, i.e. Artzi Yarom’s site and labeled there as ... Zirah Bouks:-))))

Rumpel9:
This is a $64,000 question.

Afghanistan’s weapons are a huge morass: no records, no academic studies, very few info from the Brits.

I am sure that even modern Afghanis do not know. At least I asked my ex-fellow to check for me ( he is from Pakhtunkhwa and his wife is a native Pushtun), and his brother-in-law who is in charge of the military museum in Pakhtunkhwa went over their records and found no information. His father, a history professor there was equally not helpful.

I cannot imagine any respectabe researcher who values his life going to Afghanistan these days. And if one does, the information in the local archives will amount to nothing.

The void cannot be filled or, even worse, is free for plundering by any self-promoting illiterate with itchy fingers and an access to the Internet.

Which is a pity: Afghani swords and daggers are extremely complex, interesting and steeped in history. They are by far the least known and researched traditional Indo-Persian weapons. Misinterpreting them in all their richness on the basis of shoddy "research" would be an unfortunate thing.

mahratt · 9th August 2018, 04:31 AM

Dear Marius. I'm glad that there are people who know how to think for independently. Facts are better than empty words

http://www.oriental-arms.com/search....&s.x=16&s.y=13

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1966

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=896

8th August 2018, 09:47 AM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Hello Ariel, In my opinion, all the knives you show in your posting are clearly Pesh-kabz. It is very common for Indian Pesk-kabz to have a strengthened tip. My two cents... PS: Please note that the knife in question does NOT even have a strengthened tip but a clipped tip! So, in my oppinion, a Zirah bouk is out of the question. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 8th August 2018 at 10:43 PM.

8th August 2018, 10:54 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marius: Well, please feel free to believe what you want. One can selectively choose ones with T-spine or equally selectively choose ones without it and proclaim them either rare or commonplace. The fact is simple: there were Zirah Bouks with T-spine; thus, its presence does NOT define them as NOT Zirah Bouks. The funny thing that two of my examples are from the same source you liked so much, i.e. Artzi Yarom’s site and labeled there as ... Zirah Bouks:-)))) Rumpel9: This is a $64,000 question. Afghanistan’s weapons are a huge morass: no records, no academic studies, very few info from the Brits. I am sure that even modern Afghanis do not know. At least I asked my ex-fellow to check for me ( he is from Pakhtunkhwa and his wife is a native Pushtun), and his brother-in-law who is in charge of the military museum in Pakhtunkhwa went over their records and found no information. His father, a history professor there was equally not helpful. I cannot imagine any respectabe researcher who values his life going to Afghanistan these days. And if one does, the information in the local archives will amount to nothing. The void cannot be filled or, even worse, is free for plundering by any self-promoting illiterate with itchy fingers and an access to the Internet. Which is a pity: Afghani swords and daggers are extremely complex, interesting and steeped in history. They are by far the least known and researched traditional Indo-Persian weapons. Misinterpreting them in all their richness on the basis of shoddy "research" would be an unfortunate thing. Last edited by ariel; 9th August 2018 at 02:38 AM.

9th August 2018, 04:31 AM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Dear Marius. I'm glad that there are people who know how to think for independently. Facts are better than empty words http://www.oriental-arms.com/search....&s.x=16&s.y=13 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1966 http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=896 Attached Images

6th August 2018, 10:25 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Glad we agree on the second dagger's handle. As to the first one, IMHO it is also not original, but this is merely my IMHO, And even if this Zirah Bouk was born with this handle, the blade is also not typical. But who said that Indian bladesmiths always rigidly followed some ministry-approved patterns and never ventured into a little bit of improvisation? Look at Khybers length, geometry ( straight, curved, recurved), handles. Bladesmithing was not an industrial operation: different masters with different skill levels, from different tribes and villages had a general gestalt of a weapon and let their fantasies run wild. One googles " zirah bouk images" and finds everything and anything. In my book it is a Zirah Bouk:-)

7th August 2018, 06:53 PM	#2
rumpel9 Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 68	Ariel, you're right. I was wrong about T-type back of Zirah Bouk. it's not unusual. However, for me there is still a question: which people which region did the handles of this type belong to?