Origin of this knife?

[Marc]

Ok, my go at it, knives, and specially of such a late date, being a bit off my speciality...

The shape and decoration screams Spanish, Albacete, 19th. C, maybe even late 18th. Such fullers on the blade of these are not unusual, by the way.
Things that put me off: the Albacete knives had their metallic parts (aside from the blade, of course) made of brass/bronze, not silver, which is material more usually found in, for example, the South American "cuchillos criollos" ("Criollo" knives, sometimes also called "gaucho" knives). Also, the pommels, when present, tend to be smaller.
In short, it could be a variation, particularly rich, of an Albacete knife. My bets would surely go in this direction. If it would happen to be a "colonial" variation, improbable as I believe it to be, I wouldn't be surprised, tough.

My two euro cents...


Marc

[fernando]

HI Rob T
You might try this aproach.
A Venenoza, correctly spelled A Venenosa, meaning The Poisonous ( Venomous ) One. Not a knife mark, but one of these popular phrases usually seen on blades. The z sounds the same as the s, and was used in an earlier period. The term is the same in spanish, but maybe the z letter apoints to old fashion Portuguese from Brazil or Brasil.
Just a hint.
fernando

[fernando]

Forgive me, for i am an ignaro. Do i see any relation between these three and the knife questioned by Eftihis , plus all that was shown and said in the periphery?
The top one is surely brazilian, as it holds the sellers name and adress.
The center one, with a scabbard like the one in Oriental Arms, has a blade engraving " ENFIN " ( french for "at last" ), which diverts my guessing on its origin.
The bottom one, with a hilt mount again similar to the one pictured and described in Oriental Arms, is also a mistery for me.
I hope to learn further data on them, at following this thread.
Thanks
fernando

[RobT]

fernando,
Both of your posts have provided valuable information and much to think about. First, thanks for the venenoza translation. (It was spelled with a z on the knife by the way. I wrote it down while I was looking at the blade to make sure I got the correct spelling.) I had done a couple of internet searches to see if I couldn't find a manufacturer with that name. Now I know why I came up empty. Thanks to you I won't waste any more time in that direction. What's really interesting is that the middle knife you show in your second post has a hilt, crossguard, and sheath virtually identical to the "venenoza" knife. Even more curious is the French inscription on your knife.
I think the first knife you show is a Gaucho facon. I have seen a number of those from Brazil that are made for the tourist trade. Yours appears to be the real deal however. It's really nice looking.
The sheath of the last knife you show looks very much like the sheath for my Canary Island knife however the hilt of your knife looks more like a faca da ponta hilt than a Canary Island hilt and your blade lacks the Spanish notch. Whatever it is I'd really like to get one.
Sincerely,
RobT

[Marc]

I'm sorry to disagree, but the first and last knives in Fernando's picture are not "facones". Yes, I know that what I'm saying is contrary to a fairly established belief, but it's about these things that usually pays handsomely to listen to the natives. Although in this case the "natives" are Argentinians, so listening to them may be a bit... tiresome... ( joking, joking, just joking...)

It's one of those anthropological things that defy clear categorization and that are subjected to some local variations, but as a general trend, these little (or not so little) single-edged knives with the off-centred handle, integral bolster and frequently richly decorated with embossed silver and even gold, are in fact called cuchillos criollos ("Criollo" knives), found in the south-western part of South America (Argentina, Uruguay...), and still in production (and use) today.
See:




An undecorated example:


and, although the pic is smaller, here's one of the big exemplars:



I don't know the exact details, but I do know that one may recognize regional variations of those through morphological features of the knife and its decorations, like the shape of the drag or the button/clip.


On the other hand, a facón is an unmistakable fighting weapon, much bigger, sometimes made from a cut-down or broken sword blade, and, as such, frequently double-edged. the hilt is usually centred and they normally (although not always) feature a handguard.
See:





"A facón? This is not a facón... THIS is a facón!"

It is also worth mentioning that this terminology is still in use today.

The credit goes to that Argentinian who managed to make all this information past my thick skull..

[Chris Evans]

Hi,

Marc, I think that you are absolutely right.

There is much misapplication of the terms facon, puñal, cuchillo cuchilla and daga (dagger), but the Argentinean knife expert Abel Domenech does make the point that for a knife to qualify for the nomenclature of facon, it must have a cross guard. He further argues that the facon is a sub-species of the dagger family, albeit of single edge, often sporting a false edge.

To summarize:

Cuchillo: A narrow single edged knife, that resembles a butcher's or kitchen knife

Cuchilla: a broad bladed variant of the cuchillo

Daga (dagger): Any one of the possible variations of the straight double edged European bladed knife.

Puñal (Poniard): A loose term indiscriminately applied in Sth America to all kinds of shorter knves. The root word is in Spanish "puño", that is fist, so a puñal is a knife that is intended to be held in the "ice pick"grip, in the clenched fist, so as to deliver a powerful downward stab. It finds correspondence with the pogniard.

Facon: The bade of legends. A large variant of the dagger, but with a single edge and always fitted with a cross guard. Facons measured up to 60cm blade length and were invariably made from discarded swords or bayonets.

Caronera: A very large facon, at times of sword length, carried under the saddle and usually lacking a handguard. Or, to put it differently, a rehilted sword sans its handguard.

I should add that facons (and caroneras) were more in use before the 19th century than afterwards and that real halcyon days of the gauchos were before 1800. Their mystique of the facon bearing gaucho was such that right up to the present day any knife worn on the small of the back tends to be called a facon. Historically, facons and caroneras were made from cut-down sword and bayonet blades, whereas cuhillos and cuchillas were re-hilted butcher's blades, usually imported from Europe, the most famous brand being Arbolitio, a trade name owned by Boker. In the closing years of the 19th century, Sth American manufacturers started to make blades, but up to that date their cutlers largely confined themselves to the re-hilting and ornamentation of sundry imported blades.

The silver hilted and sheated knives that these days we associate with gauchos, were in fact luxury items that could only be afforded by wealthy landowners or their overseers. The common gaucho, by the 19th century was reduced to an impoverished "peon", a mere agricultural laborer, and had to contend himself with far far less lavish cutting implements.

In the 20th century gaucho knives in all kinds and sizes were mass produced around imported butcher blades and their sheaths and hilts made from German Silver (Spanish: Alpaca). For most part these are items sold to tourists, or worn as dress items on festive occasions.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Blade lengths are:
Top one - 18 centimeters
Center one - 20,5 centimetrs.
I wonder what the hilt is made with.
Bottom one - 13,5 centimeters ... quite small.