PARANG PANDIT

VVV · 3rd April 2006, 10:22 PM

Hi Dajak,

I must admit I haven't studied Iban design overall enough to analyse your scabbard motives.
But I think I can find a similar scabbard pattern on one of my Pandat below.
According to Shelford's classification both of our Pandat are Sidin Land Dayak
(please correct me if I am mistaken on this?).
Could it be that the Land Dayaks were either inspired by the Iban patterns or that they share resembling motives?
This based on your argument that some of the Iban are neighbours to the Land Dayaks?

Michael

Dajak · 4th April 2006, 10:55 PM

Hi Michael the problem with these things is that who did have first the pandit
the Ibans or the land dayaks .

If You have the book basic Iban design you can find it in there the design that is on the scabbard

The problem with these things is that the pandats mostly very old and difficult trace back off the origin off the sword but it is more likely that this type off pandat has the origin by the Ibans .

They where the mostly headhunters off al the dayaks are from borneo ,
It was never used as an tool only for head hunting.

If anyone have pics from people with pandats like them to see.

By the way very nice pandat

VVV · 4th April 2006, 11:42 PM

Hi Dajak,

Yes, I have that book as well as the new Iban Art book.
I had a look in them both, as well as couple of other general Dayak design books, but the only Iban resembling pattern on your scabbard I could find was variations of the general leaf pattern.
This is a pattern variation that also is found among several other tribes.
I specifically looked for the "fish" symbol on your scabbard but couldn't find it anywhere as Iban.
I also tried to find the diagonal checkered pattern in the Iban design books.
Please give me some hints on where to look?
I haven't seen any proof that the Pandat has been used by the Ibans after late 19th C. Do you agree?
If Pandat originally was an Iban Parang, why did they then stop using it and why did the Land Dayaks take over it?
And why did the old field researchers only attribute it to the Land Dayaks?
But I guess that Stone got it from some old source that I missed?
Do you know which?

Michael

RhysMichael · 5th April 2006, 12:20 AM

Dominique Buttin attibuted them to the land dyaks on his site
http://old.blades.free.fr/
I beleive most of his information comes from ""Catalogue de la Collection d'Armes Anciennes, Européennes et Orientales" " by Chales Buttin

Dajak · 5th April 2006, 06:11 AM

Hi he did that after I send him the shelford publication and pics off the
pandat because that is the same as the one pictured overhere

Micheal he might got some imformation from

Ling Roth The natives off Sarawak and British Borneo 1869

I have an sword that was an bringback by an British officer in 1820

So english where very early there before shelford make the publication more than 100 years ago before he makes the publication

VVV · 5th April 2006, 08:50 AM

Hi Ben,

I have read Ling Roth's book but I think it's very cryptic regarding his description of Dayak swords. Sometimes I suspect that he mixes up names of the swords (Nabur vs Niabor) and a lot seems to come from hearsay. So if Ling Roth is the main source I fully understand why Stone also had problems with classifying some weapons.
Another example is his description of the Dukn. A van Zonneveld obviously chooses only to quote it in his excellent book, maybe because it's hard to figure out what it really is? My guess (!) is that it's the Iban Pedang that resembles the Batak Piso Podang.
Enclosed is a page from Ling Roth on the Parang Pandit (I think?).
If that's the page then he attributes it to the Hill tribes instead of the Sea Dayaks.
I also have enclosed a nice illustration from the same book of a Pandat that resembles yours. Also note that Ling Roth attributes the Kampilan in the same illustration to the Lanun tribe.

This thread more and more looks like a discussion only between us so unless somebody else would like to participate maybe we should continue it off forum?

And I am sure that we all would like to see the 1820 bring back sword.

Michael

PS RhysMichael, Charles Buttin's Catalogue is a catalogue of his collection. I don't have it with me at the moment but I think there is only one plate in it of Indonesian weapons. I find the D Buttin site very well researched and you can find a separate reference list on the site with several good books and articles.

Dajak · 5th April 2006, 08:42 PM

I show you the sword when you visit me other wise I have nothing news for you to see.

3rd April 2006, 10:22 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Dajak, I must admit I haven't studied Iban design overall enough to analyse your scabbard motives. But I think I can find a similar scabbard pattern on one of my Pandat below. According to Shelford's classification both of our Pandat are Sidin Land Dayak (please correct me if I am mistaken on this?). Could it be that the Land Dayaks were either inspired by the Iban patterns or that they share resembling motives? This based on your argument that some of the Iban are neighbours to the Land Dayaks? Michael Attached Images

5th April 2006, 08:50 AM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Ben, I have read Ling Roth's book but I think it's very cryptic regarding his description of Dayak swords. Sometimes I suspect that he mixes up names of the swords (Nabur vs Niabor) and a lot seems to come from hearsay. So if Ling Roth is the main source I fully understand why Stone also had problems with classifying some weapons. Another example is his description of the Dukn. A van Zonneveld obviously chooses only to quote it in his excellent book, maybe because it's hard to figure out what it really is? My guess (!) is that it's the Iban Pedang that resembles the Batak Piso Podang. Enclosed is a page from Ling Roth on the Parang Pandit (I think?). If that's the page then he attributes it to the Hill tribes instead of the Sea Dayaks. I also have enclosed a nice illustration from the same book of a Pandat that resembles yours. Also note that Ling Roth attributes the Kampilan in the same illustration to the Lanun tribe. This thread more and more looks like a discussion only between us so unless somebody else would like to participate maybe we should continue it off forum? And I am sure that we all would like to see the 1820 bring back sword. Michael PS RhysMichael, Charles Buttin's Catalogue is a catalogue of his collection. I don't have it with me at the moment but I think there is only one plate in it of Indonesian weapons. I find the D Buttin site very well researched and you can find a separate reference list on the site with several good books and articles. Attached Images

4th April 2006, 10:55 PM	#2
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Michael the problem with these things is that who did have first the pandit the Ibans or the land dayaks . If You have the book basic Iban design you can find it in there the design that is on the scabbard The problem with these things is that the pandats mostly very old and difficult trace back off the origin off the sword but it is more likely that this type off pandat has the origin by the Ibans . They where the mostly headhunters off al the dayaks are from borneo , It was never used as an tool only for head hunting. If anyone have pics from people with pandats like them to see. By the way very nice pandat

4th April 2006, 11:42 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Dajak, Yes, I have that book as well as the new Iban Art book. I had a look in them both, as well as couple of other general Dayak design books, but the only Iban resembling pattern on your scabbard I could find was variations of the general leaf pattern. This is a pattern variation that also is found among several other tribes. I specifically looked for the "fish" symbol on your scabbard but couldn't find it anywhere as Iban. I also tried to find the diagonal checkered pattern in the Iban design books. Please give me some hints on where to look? I haven't seen any proof that the Pandat has been used by the Ibans after late 19th C. Do you agree? If Pandat originally was an Iban Parang, why did they then stop using it and why did the Land Dayaks take over it? And why did the old field researchers only attribute it to the Land Dayaks? But I guess that Stone got it from some old source that I missed? Do you know which? Michael

5th April 2006, 12:20 AM	#4
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Dominique Buttin attibuted them to the land dyaks on his site http://old.blades.free.fr/ I beleive most of his information comes from ""Catalogue de la Collection d'Armes Anciennes, Européennes et Orientales" " by Chales Buttin

5th April 2006, 06:11 AM	#5
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi he did that after I send him the shelford publication and pics off the pandat because that is the same as the one pictured overhere Micheal he might got some imformation from Ling Roth The natives off Sarawak and British Borneo 1869 I have an sword that was an bringback by an British officer in 1820 So english where very early there before shelford make the publication more than 100 years ago before he makes the publication

5th April 2006, 08:42 PM	#7
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	I show you the sword when you visit me other wise I have nothing news for you to see.