Jejeran Pulungan

rasjid · 1st July 2018, 01:36 PM

Yes Jean, agreed. They all similar but from local discussion they talks some differences if they have crown and no crown? Means younger age or older?
When we discuss like more specific detailed about hilt, its become more complicated as who is the real trend setter to make statement?
For Keris, we can from keraton Solo for example about Solo keris.
Alan mentioned many times, keris knowledge change following which group you are belong too... its the nature but if we are discussing a high level keris, even from photo given at certain degree we can come into a conclusion or general agreement.

Jean · 1st July 2018, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasjid

Yes Jean, agreed. They all similar but from local discussion they talks some differences if they have crown and no crown? Means younger age or older?

Yes Rasjid, the specimens with a crown look a bit different and generally older, may be from a specific area or period? However they probably date from later than the 17th century as no such specimen seems to have been brought to Europe at that time? (but I may be wrong).
Regards

David · 1st July 2018, 04:57 PM

I've been leaning towards calling these hilts Buta Bajang, but then, what's in a name.
This name game thing can be very annoying at times, but then we must consider that if it ever is possible to find the original name for something that name could, i suppose, lead to some deeper understanding of the thing itself...or not.
Even if we can determine if "pulungan" was ever a possible original term for such hilts, was it a general term or a more localized speciality term? And would such a naming lead us to any greater understanding of the hilt itself and it's place within Javanese/Cirebon keris culture? Strangely enough i do not yet have a good Javanese/English dictionary (yes, i know

). Google translator is horrible, but it does translate "pulungan" as "meeting". This is probably incorrect and maybe Alan has a more accurate translation as this one does not seem to add any particular incite into the nature of these hilts.
Ultimately though it seems that we are past the point where we can ever be sure of the origin of these names or what may or may not be more correct. I find that in many circles "knowledge" of the most amount of specialized keris terminology is part of the i-know-more-than-you-do game of one-upmanship. Unfortunately this game seems to often be inserted into discussions as a substitute for any substantial understanding about the nature of keris.
Here are a couple of my Buta Bajang hilts. One is very old and the other is a nice contemporary hilt that i believe holds to traditional design. I don't know if either of these has characteristics that would lead a more knowledgeable collector to label it "pulungan". It does seem that the body position in these two hilts are somewhat different, with the contemporary one in a deeper squatting position and the old one seems more seated atop something. That in itself might designate these hilts by completely different specific names.

A. G. Maisey · 2nd July 2018, 12:00 AM

"Pulungan" is a very interesting word.

It exists in Old Javanese where it is given a single meaning :- " a particular type of official". So before +/- 1600 the word "pulung" referred to an official of a particular type.

However, in Kawi, which was one of the inputs to Old Javanese, "pulung" is given four meanings:- "a roll", "rolled", "to gather", as well the Javanese meaning given in the next paragraph. But Kawi is a Javanese adaption of Sanscrit, and the word "pulung" does not seem to exist in Sanscrit, so "pulung", as it is understood in Jawa and other parts of Indonesia, appears to have originated in Kawi.

Modern Javanese (New Javanese) began to develop with the rise of the Second Kingdom of Mataram. (Zoetmulder seems to consider Kawi, Old Javanese and Middle Javanese together as "Old Javanese').

In Modern Javanese "pulung" acquired a number of applications, but the most generally used application seems to be the one associated with "wahyu" = " a sign from heaven in the form of a falling star indicating that the one on whom it falls is destined for high office", so here we have the continuation from Old Javanese into Modern Javanese of "pulung" being associated with officialdom. But in Modern Javanese there is also a whole swathe of other applications for the word "pulung", and its derivatives .

In Javanese the word "pulungan" seems not to get any sort of formal recognition, it may be informally used, but it appears not to be a word that can be used in formal Javanese speech. I am not proficient in Javanese, it is simply too difficult for me to learn, in fact, too difficult for most Javanese people to learn also. I know of a middle-class Javanese woman who married into an aristocratic family, and before her wedding she had to take lessons in Krama and Madya so that she was able to converse politely with all members of her new husband's family, before this she had only been able to speak Ngoko and Bahasa Indonesia. In any case, my opinion that "pulungan" does not exist in correct Javanese is based on personal information from a competent native speaker of Javanese and from several dictionaries.

"Pulungan" is not a Javanese word.
But it is an Indonesian word.

In Bahasa Indonesia (B.I.) the word "pulung" has a similar meaning to the Modern Javanese meaning linked to officialdom, except the B.I. understanding is that it is a flash of light that legitimises a ruler, before I consulted a dictionary, this was the only meaning I knew, however Echols & Shadilly give us other meanings as well:-
1)to have power bestowed by the flash of light,
2) to have the bad luck to be given an unwanted task (obviously a colloquial and cynical meaning).
In colloquial usage (Ngoko) the word "pulung" can also mean "good fortune", just as cynically or sarcastically it can also mean "bad luck".

But in B.I. "pulung" also means "pellet", and in B.I. the word "pulungan" does exist, it means something that has been rolled into pellets. The "an" is a B.I. suffix that creates a noun, for example:- "makan" = eat, "makanan" = "food".

Thus, it seems obvious to me that this "pulungan" word that has been stuck on these figural hilts is the product not of a speaker of Javanese, at least not speaker of Javanese who is above the level of Ngoko, but rather of a speaker of Bahasa Indonesia. Probably somebody from Jakarta.

Here is a hypothetical:- we need a word to put onto a keris hilt that identifies that keris hilt as a style used by people of rank, we know that "pulung" is a flash of light that legitimises a ruler, so we add "an" to the end of it to turn "pulung" into a noun:- "pulungan", a hilt for a ruler or at least somebody of rank.

The problem is though, that we are not really all that well educated, and we probably don't even have a dictionary in the house, let alone think of consulting a dictionary before inventing a new word that is really not all that fitting for the object we created it to describe (the pulungan hilt), so we do not know that the word "pulungan" already exists in B.I. and that it means something that has been rolled into pellets.

Words and the way they are used can tell us more than a little about the person using them.

rasjid · 2nd July 2018, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Yes Rasjid, the specimens with a crown look a bit different and generally older, may be from a specific area or period? However they probably date from later than the 17th century as no such specimen seems to have been brought to Europe at that time? (but I may be wrong).
Regards

Yes Jean, some discussion also mentioned its older ( means by age) not in period making. To me, its just the carver's design and imagination.

Rembrant 1632 already have keris or some sort of dagger in the painting. So i never go to the detailed yet

rasjid · 2nd July 2018, 02:46 AM

Thank you Alan, detailed information there.

Just a little from me, Pulung- an, maybe its just a name to generalized things. Like "sejenis pulung-pulung an" or " some sort of pulung".
Same like the hilt with long nose, in sumatra or cirebon some called: "bebek-bebek" an. (Actual meaning: duck? Or duckling?)

not sure myself.

rasjid · 2nd July 2018, 03:01 AM

David,
I have one also...
bold, wood n fossilized, heavy in weigh.

called buta bajang? I'm no expert and not involved in the naming game. Its old and made from wood material.

Rasjid

A. G. Maisey · 2nd July 2018, 04:29 AM

Rasjid, true, "an" can have other applications, but my post was already too long, too complex, and I did not want to turn it into a lesson in Indonesian grammar.

I probably used a bad word for an example of the use of the "an" suffix, but I wanted the use of the suffix to be clear, I did not want to give lessons in grammar. It was bad example because I used a verb as my root word, which does give good contrast for clarity of comprehension, but since "pulung" is a noun I guess it can also cause confusion, especially to someone like you, who is a native speaker of B.I. Please accept my apologies.

So let me try again:-
verb + an = noun that is result of action ( I probably used eat & food as my example because I was eating a chocolate biscuit as I wrote)

noun + an = noun that is more focussed than the original noun

adjective + an = noun that has the character of the adjective

So, your example of "bebek-bebekan" = ducks + an = duck-like, similarly "keris-kerisan" = kerises + an = keris-like, but here in your examples we have doubled the noun, so we are adding "an" to a plural noun, not a singular noun, thus it acquires a slightly different meaning that can be understood as generic :- duck like things, keris-like things.

In respect of the pulungan hilt, it is a hilt that is focussed on the idea of wahyu, good fortune, high ranking official, it is the adding of "an" to a noun, which creates a focus on the product of that flash of light:- "pulung" is the flash that brings rank and good fortune, the result of that flash is the person to whom the rank and good fortune has been brought, that is, this fortunate person is the "pulungan".

So, if some of these hilts have crowns, and others do not, who is the fortunate one, the one who received the wahyu?

But in another sense he is also something that has been rolled into a pellet.

Anyone feel like rolling a king?

rasjid · 2nd July 2018, 06:04 AM

Alan,

Agreed, we do not explain about Bahasa Indonesia. Just touching a little bit, to explain.
Thank you, I'm learning as well from your post.

So my guess, we we rank them according to price wise and assuming all quality carving similar:
1. Crown head and Snake in shoulder would be rank 1 & 2, the crown one maybe #1, seldom seen around. Snake one, once in a while seen.
2. Pendant
3. Plain on chest or sometimes plain chest and the hands carved

So many other variants.
Welcome to the world of hilts, not to mention about the keris yet

Rasjid

Jean · 2nd July 2018, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasjid

Same like the hilt with long nose, in sumatra or cirebon some called: "bebek-bebek" an. (Actual meaning: duck? Or duckling?)

not sure myself.

According to the book "Keris dan senjata pusaka bahari" (one of the rare books dealing with krisses from Cirebon), the name garan bebekan (duck hilt) refers to the Jawa demam style hilts from Cirebon (see attached specimen).
Regards

rasjid · 2nd July 2018, 03:49 PM

Thank you Jean. Is this yours? Nice one.
A new thread would be good for bebekan.

Bjorn · 2nd July 2018, 06:55 PM

Thank you, Alan, for that informative post. I always like to learn more about languages, as words and cultures are inextricably linked and influence each other in all sorts of ways.

1st July 2018, 04:57 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	I've been leaning towards calling these hilts Buta Bajang, but then, what's in a name. This name game thing can be very annoying at times, but then we must consider that if it ever is possible to find the original name for something that name could, i suppose, lead to some deeper understanding of the thing itself...or not. Even if we can determine if "pulungan" was ever a possible original term for such hilts, was it a general term or a more localized speciality term? And would such a naming lead us to any greater understanding of the hilt itself and it's place within Javanese/Cirebon keris culture? Strangely enough i do not yet have a good Javanese/English dictionary (yes, i know ). Google translator is horrible, but it does translate "pulungan" as "meeting". This is probably incorrect and maybe Alan has a more accurate translation as this one does not seem to add any particular incite into the nature of these hilts. Ultimately though it seems that we are past the point where we can ever be sure of the origin of these names or what may or may not be more correct. I find that in many circles "knowledge" of the most amount of specialized keris terminology is part of the i-know-more-than-you-do game of one-upmanship. Unfortunately this game seems to often be inserted into discussions as a substitute for any substantial understanding about the nature of keris. Here are a couple of my Buta Bajang hilts. One is very old and the other is a nice contemporary hilt that i believe holds to traditional design. I don't know if either of these has characteristics that would lead a more knowledgeable collector to label it "pulungan". It does seem that the body position in these two hilts are somewhat different, with the contemporary one in a deeper squatting position and the old one seems more seated atop something. That in itself might designate these hilts by completely different specific names. Attached Images

2nd July 2018, 12:00 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	"Pulungan" is a very interesting word. It exists in Old Javanese where it is given a single meaning :- " a particular type of official". So before +/- 1600 the word "pulung" referred to an official of a particular type. However, in Kawi, which was one of the inputs to Old Javanese, "pulung" is given four meanings:- "a roll", "rolled", "to gather", as well the Javanese meaning given in the next paragraph. But Kawi is a Javanese adaption of Sanscrit, and the word "pulung" does not seem to exist in Sanscrit, so "pulung", as it is understood in Jawa and other parts of Indonesia, appears to have originated in Kawi. Modern Javanese (New Javanese) began to develop with the rise of the Second Kingdom of Mataram. (Zoetmulder seems to consider Kawi, Old Javanese and Middle Javanese together as "Old Javanese'). In Modern Javanese "pulung" acquired a number of applications, but the most generally used application seems to be the one associated with "wahyu" = " a sign from heaven in the form of a falling star indicating that the one on whom it falls is destined for high office", so here we have the continuation from Old Javanese into Modern Javanese of "pulung" being associated with officialdom. But in Modern Javanese there is also a whole swathe of other applications for the word "pulung", and its derivatives . In Javanese the word "pulungan" seems not to get any sort of formal recognition, it may be informally used, but it appears not to be a word that can be used in formal Javanese speech. I am not proficient in Javanese, it is simply too difficult for me to learn, in fact, too difficult for most Javanese people to learn also. I know of a middle-class Javanese woman who married into an aristocratic family, and before her wedding she had to take lessons in Krama and Madya so that she was able to converse politely with all members of her new husband's family, before this she had only been able to speak Ngoko and Bahasa Indonesia. In any case, my opinion that "pulungan" does not exist in correct Javanese is based on personal information from a competent native speaker of Javanese and from several dictionaries. "Pulungan" is not a Javanese word. But it is an Indonesian word. In Bahasa Indonesia (B.I.) the word "pulung" has a similar meaning to the Modern Javanese meaning linked to officialdom, except the B.I. understanding is that it is a flash of light that legitimises a ruler, before I consulted a dictionary, this was the only meaning I knew, however Echols & Shadilly give us other meanings as well:- 1)to have power bestowed by the flash of light, 2) to have the bad luck to be given an unwanted task (obviously a colloquial and cynical meaning). In colloquial usage (Ngoko) the word "pulung" can also mean "good fortune", just as cynically or sarcastically it can also mean "bad luck". But in B.I. "pulung" also means "pellet", and in B.I. the word "pulungan" does exist, it means something that has been rolled into pellets. The "an" is a B.I. suffix that creates a noun, for example:- "makan" = eat, "makanan" = "food". Thus, it seems obvious to me that this "pulungan" word that has been stuck on these figural hilts is the product not of a speaker of Javanese, at least not speaker of Javanese who is above the level of Ngoko, but rather of a speaker of Bahasa Indonesia. Probably somebody from Jakarta. Here is a hypothetical:- we need a word to put onto a keris hilt that identifies that keris hilt as a style used by people of rank, we know that "pulung" is a flash of light that legitimises a ruler, so we add "an" to the end of it to turn "pulung" into a noun:- "pulungan", a hilt for a ruler or at least somebody of rank. The problem is though, that we are not really all that well educated, and we probably don't even have a dictionary in the house, let alone think of consulting a dictionary before inventing a new word that is really not all that fitting for the object we created it to describe (the pulungan hilt), so we do not know that the word "pulungan" already exists in B.I. and that it means something that has been rolled into pellets. Words and the way they are used can tell us more than a little about the person using them. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 2nd July 2018 at 12:32 AM. Reason: maths

2nd July 2018, 02:46 AM	#6
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Pulungan word... Thank you Alan, detailed information there. Just a little from me, Pulung- an, maybe its just a name to generalized things. Like "sejenis pulung-pulung an" or " some sort of pulung". Same like the hilt with long nose, in sumatra or cirebon some called: "bebek-bebek" an. (Actual meaning: duck? Or duckling?) not sure myself.

2nd July 2018, 03:01 AM	#7
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	David, I have one also... bold, wood n fossilized, heavy in weigh. called buta bajang? I'm no expert and not involved in the naming game. Its old and made from wood material. Rasjid Attached Images

1st July 2018, 01:36 PM	#1
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Yes Jean, agreed. They all similar but from local discussion they talks some differences if they have crown and no crown? Means younger age or older? When we discuss like more specific detailed about hilt, its become more complicated as who is the real trend setter to make statement? For Keris, we can from keraton Solo for example about Solo keris. Alan mentioned many times, keris knowledge change following which group you are belong too... its the nature but if we are discussing a high level keris, even from photo given at certain degree we can come into a conclusion or general agreement.

2nd July 2018, 04:29 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Rasjid, true, "an" can have other applications, but my post was already too long, too complex, and I did not want to turn it into a lesson in Indonesian grammar. I probably used a bad word for an example of the use of the "an" suffix, but I wanted the use of the suffix to be clear, I did not want to give lessons in grammar. It was bad example because I used a verb as my root word, which does give good contrast for clarity of comprehension, but since "pulung" is a noun I guess it can also cause confusion, especially to someone like you, who is a native speaker of B.I. Please accept my apologies. So let me try again:- verb + an = noun that is result of action ( I probably used eat & food as my example because I was eating a chocolate biscuit as I wrote) noun + an = noun that is more focussed than the original noun adjective + an = noun that has the character of the adjective So, your example of "bebek-bebekan" = ducks + an = duck-like, similarly "keris-kerisan" = kerises + an = keris-like, but here in your examples we have doubled the noun, so we are adding "an" to a plural noun, not a singular noun, thus it acquires a slightly different meaning that can be understood as generic :- duck like things, keris-like things. In respect of the pulungan hilt, it is a hilt that is focussed on the idea of wahyu, good fortune, high ranking official, it is the adding of "an" to a noun, which creates a focus on the product of that flash of light:- "pulung" is the flash that brings rank and good fortune, the result of that flash is the person to whom the rank and good fortune has been brought, that is, this fortunate person is the "pulungan". So, if some of these hilts have crowns, and others do not, who is the fortunate one, the one who received the wahyu? But in another sense he is also something that has been rolled into a pellet. Anyone feel like rolling a king?

2nd July 2018, 06:04 AM	#9
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Alan, Agreed, we do not explain about Bahasa Indonesia. Just touching a little bit, to explain. Thank you, I'm learning as well from your post. So my guess, we we rank them according to price wise and assuming all quality carving similar: 1. Crown head and Snake in shoulder would be rank 1 & 2, the crown one maybe #1, seldom seen around. Snake one, once in a while seen. 2. Pendant 3. Plain on chest or sometimes plain chest and the hands carved So many other variants. Welcome to the world of hilts, not to mention about the keris yet Rasjid

2nd July 2018, 03:49 PM	#11
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Thank you Jean. Is this yours? Nice one. A new thread would be good for bebekan.

2nd July 2018, 06:55 PM	#12
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	Thank you, Alan, for that informative post. I always like to learn more about languages, as words and cultures are inextricably linked and influence each other in all sorts of ways.