A very special 'tulwar'

Victrix · 28th June 2018, 05:52 PM

As pointed out earlier, Panzerstecher is just German for armour piercing sword. In French it’s estoc and in Hungarian it’s hegyestor, etc.

If the sword in Istanbul looked like this, it’s likely a Turkish/Ottoman armour piercing sword. This particular item is displayed at the Imperial Armoury in Vienna. It’s war booty and was captured from Mikailoglu Kasim Bey outside Vienna in 1532.

The Tulwar above looks like it could be an armour piercing sword, but the tip seems surprisingly obtuse if designed to penetrate chinks in chainmail. Perhaps it’s just a decorative item used for display or rituals?

fernando · 28th June 2018, 06:31 PM

Is that you holding that beautiful estoc Victrix ? Have you borrowed it from the Imperial Armoury ? Did you already return it

Victrix · 28th June 2018, 07:15 PM

I wish it was me but unfortunately it’s from this website: http://www.harmankaya.net/KasimBeyPanzerstecher.html
It must be some fortunate museum curator fellow handling the beautiful sword

But the same sword appears on the right in my previous post from a picture taken by me through the glass of the display case at the Imperial Armoury in Vienna during my visit last December. I wanted to show more details of the sword by adding the photos from the website. Note how long the sword is, and that the blade is reinforced for greater strength and rigidity required to penetrate chainmail.

Jens Nordlunde · 28th June 2018, 09:34 PM

Victrix, the 'sword' I saw in Istanbul was like the one Tirri shows, not like the one yoou show - desværre.

ariel · 28th June 2018, 10:00 PM

Energy is a product of mass times speed squared.
Energy of a thrust by an experienced cavalryman is a mass times the sum squared of speed of the thrust+ speed of the horse.

Victrix · 28th June 2018, 10:01 PM

Jens, I know very little about Indian swords unfortunately (but willing to learn). As I mentioned the length of the tulwar makes it look like an estoc but the tip should be sharper and the blade should have a slight taper to penetrate and expand the chinks in the chainmail. The steel also needs to be very hard. I know they used chainmail in India which is helpful in hot climates as air is allowed to circulate. Guess there would be a Mughal connection. Det kanske finns ett online foto från samlingen på svärdet du såg?

Jens Nordlunde · 29th June 2018, 02:36 PM

Victrix, jeg har ledt på millitærmuseets og Topkapis hjemmesider - ingen billeder.
I have been looking at the homepages of The Millitary museum, and the one of Topkapi, but found very few pictures, and most certainly not of the 'sword' discussed.
A search at the homepage of the MET give no result.

midelburgo · 29th June 2018, 04:22 PM

I think the ones really enjoying this kind of weapon were the Polish. Here says that inventories give near parity with broadswords (sabers?), as the weapon to be used after a lance charge.

http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/Koncerz.htm

About crossbows and bows losing ground to fire weapons, what it is often not realized is that you can have a bag with a kilo of arquebus balls and that will give you some 40 shots. But to have 40 arrows or bolts is much more encumbering. So the rate of fire is secondary. Of course, you can recover some, but only when the fight is over...if you win.

In his memories, Marshall Monluc describes how he became behind the Spanish lines in Fuenterrabia in 1521 with a band of crossbowmen for a couple of days. Trying to return they were very afraid of encountering Spanish cavalry because their bolts could not penetrate and they were wasting them fast. Their only hope was a small group of Navarrese shotgunners. 4 years later at Pavia, the French were still hardly using arquebuses.

28th June 2018, 05:52 PM	#1
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	As pointed out earlier, Panzerstecher is just German for armour piercing sword. In French it’s estoc and in Hungarian it’s hegyestor, etc. If the sword in Istanbul looked like this, it’s likely a Turkish/Ottoman armour piercing sword. This particular item is displayed at the Imperial Armoury in Vienna. It’s war booty and was captured from Mikailoglu Kasim Bey outside Vienna in 1532. The Tulwar above looks like it could be an armour piercing sword, but the tip seems surprisingly obtuse if designed to penetrate chinks in chainmail. Perhaps it’s just a decorative item used for display or rituals? Attached Images

28th June 2018, 10:00 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Energy is a product of mass times speed squared. Energy of a thrust by an experienced cavalryman is a mass times the sum squared of speed of the thrust+ speed of the horse. Last edited by ariel; 29th June 2018 at 12:20 AM.

28th June 2018, 06:31 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Is that you holding that beautiful estoc Victrix ? Have you borrowed it from the Imperial Armoury ? Did you already return it

28th June 2018, 07:15 PM	#3
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	I wish it was me but unfortunately it’s from this website: http://www.harmankaya.net/KasimBeyPanzerstecher.html It must be some fortunate museum curator fellow handling the beautiful sword But the same sword appears on the right in my previous post from a picture taken by me through the glass of the display case at the Imperial Armoury in Vienna during my visit last December. I wanted to show more details of the sword by adding the photos from the website. Note how long the sword is, and that the blade is reinforced for greater strength and rigidity required to penetrate chainmail.

28th June 2018, 09:34 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Victrix, the 'sword' I saw in Istanbul was like the one Tirri shows, not like the one yoou show - desværre.

28th June 2018, 10:01 PM	#6
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Jens, I know very little about Indian swords unfortunately (but willing to learn). As I mentioned the length of the tulwar makes it look like an estoc but the tip should be sharper and the blade should have a slight taper to penetrate and expand the chinks in the chainmail. The steel also needs to be very hard. I know they used chainmail in India which is helpful in hot climates as air is allowed to circulate. Guess there would be a Mughal connection. Det kanske finns ett online foto från samlingen på svärdet du såg?

29th June 2018, 02:36 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Victrix, jeg har ledt på millitærmuseets og Topkapis hjemmesider - ingen billeder. I have been looking at the homepages of The Millitary museum, and the one of Topkapi, but found very few pictures, and most certainly not of the 'sword' discussed. A search at the homepage of the MET give no result.

29th June 2018, 04:22 PM	#8
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 263	I think the ones really enjoying this kind of weapon were the Polish. Here says that inventories give near parity with broadswords (sabers?), as the weapon to be used after a lance charge. http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/Koncerz.htm About crossbows and bows losing ground to fire weapons, what it is often not realized is that you can have a bag with a kilo of arquebus balls and that will give you some 40 shots. But to have 40 arrows or bolts is much more encumbering. So the rate of fire is secondary. Of course, you can recover some, but only when the fight is over...if you win. In his memories, Marshall Monluc describes how he became behind the Spanish lines in Fuenterrabia in 1521 with a band of crossbowmen for a couple of days. Trying to return they were very afraid of encountering Spanish cavalry because their bolts could not penetrate and they were wasting them fast. Their only hope was a small group of Navarrese shotgunners. 4 years later at Pavia, the French were still hardly using arquebuses.