"Is it really a Cockatoo?"

Ian · 21st June 2018, 10:10 AM

Alan,

I agree with much of what you say about understanding the Maranao language and culture. However, the present discussion refers back to the shape of the hilt that Cato has termed kakatua. This shape is not peculiarly Maranao and features prominently among all Moro groups--including the Maguindanao, the various groups in the Sulu Archipelago, and those in N. Borneo and the Brunei Sultanate. The style has also been identified in Malaysian examples.

It would seem that we need to look beyond the Maranao if Ron's thesis is to be tested. That's a substantial task if we are to understand the meaning of sarimanok among all these groups, or even whether sarimanok has a significant meaning for groups other than the Maranao.

Ian.

A. G. Maisey · 21st June 2018, 12:47 PM

Yes Ian, I do understand that the discussion concerns the shape of the hilt and whether it actually represents a kakatau or a sarimanok.

I have no intention at all of getting involved in this, simply because I believe I would need to devote far more time than I have available to assemble a cultural, societal and linguistic base that would permit me to provide a defensible opinion.

However, to my way of thinking, and I acknowledge that my way of thinking is very often out of synch with most of the people who contribute to this Forum, to my way of thinking it is absolutely essential to gain an understanding of exactly how the Sarimanok is understood by the people within the Maranao community who have the indigenous cultural knowledge that would enable those people to form a valid opinion in respect of the way in which the Sarimanok can be legitimately understood.

Once that understanding, which is the cultural property of the people who originated the idea of the Sarimanok, is available to people who are outside the framework of Maranao culture and society, then, and only then might it become possible for those "outsiders" to attempt to understand sufficient to form an opinion on the validity of Sarimanok or of kakatua.

I know virtually nothing of Maranao culture, but I do have a pretty solid grasp of the belief patterns of the peoples of the Indianised states of SE Asia. It is my feeling --- I emphasise "feeling" --- that when this matter finally comes to an acceptable conclusion that we shall be able to see connections between the cultural relevance of these Maranao hilts, and the cultural relevance of other weapon hilts throughout Maritime SE Asia, most especially in those parts of SE Asia that can be regarded as having been subject to influence from the Indian Sub-Continent.

But before any of that can happen I believe it is necessary to come to a valid understanding of exactly what it is that is under discussion, and the core of this discussion is centered around two physical things that in their cultural settings have become ideas. My approach to this riddle would be to first attempt to understand those ideas from a Maranao perspective. I would not focus on form and personal opinion, these could come later.

In any case, it is an interesting discussion, even if it seems to be going nowhere. I'm enjoying it.

Gavin Nugent · 5th March 2023, 12:47 AM

Linky exchange program

The icon relevance
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=70

My perception of the icon
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=71

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=72

The further discussion
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27729

5th March 2023, 12:47 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Linky exchange program The icon relevance http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=70 My perception of the icon http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=71 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=72 The further discussion http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27729 Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 5th March 2023 at 03:31 AM.

21st June 2018, 10:10 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Alan, I agree with much of what you say about understanding the Maranao language and culture. However, the present discussion refers back to the shape of the hilt that Cato has termed kakatua. This shape is not peculiarly Maranao and features prominently among all Moro groups--including the Maguindanao, the various groups in the Sulu Archipelago, and those in N. Borneo and the Brunei Sultanate. The style has also been identified in Malaysian examples. It would seem that we need to look beyond the Maranao if Ron's thesis is to be tested. That's a substantial task if we are to understand the meaning of sarimanok among all these groups, or even whether sarimanok has a significant meaning for groups other than the Maranao. Ian.

21st June 2018, 12:47 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yes Ian, I do understand that the discussion concerns the shape of the hilt and whether it actually represents a kakatau or a sarimanok. I have no intention at all of getting involved in this, simply because I believe I would need to devote far more time than I have available to assemble a cultural, societal and linguistic base that would permit me to provide a defensible opinion. However, to my way of thinking, and I acknowledge that my way of thinking is very often out of synch with most of the people who contribute to this Forum, to my way of thinking it is absolutely essential to gain an understanding of exactly how the Sarimanok is understood by the people within the Maranao community who have the indigenous cultural knowledge that would enable those people to form a valid opinion in respect of the way in which the Sarimanok can be legitimately understood. Once that understanding, which is the cultural property of the people who originated the idea of the Sarimanok, is available to people who are outside the framework of Maranao culture and society, then, and only then might it become possible for those "outsiders" to attempt to understand sufficient to form an opinion on the validity of Sarimanok or of kakatua. I know virtually nothing of Maranao culture, but I do have a pretty solid grasp of the belief patterns of the peoples of the Indianised states of SE Asia. It is my feeling --- I emphasise "feeling" --- that when this matter finally comes to an acceptable conclusion that we shall be able to see connections between the cultural relevance of these Maranao hilts, and the cultural relevance of other weapon hilts throughout Maritime SE Asia, most especially in those parts of SE Asia that can be regarded as having been subject to influence from the Indian Sub-Continent. But before any of that can happen I believe it is necessary to come to a valid understanding of exactly what it is that is under discussion, and the core of this discussion is centered around two physical things that in their cultural settings have become ideas. My approach to this riddle would be to first attempt to understand those ideas from a Maranao perspective. I would not focus on form and personal opinion, these could come later. In any case, it is an interesting discussion, even if it seems to be going nowhere. I'm enjoying it.